Chauvinist socialists are far from optimal, but also the best you can hope for in the region right now.
Chauvinism, just like other conservative/regressive ideas can not be done away by force. It requires the culture to gradually change, preferably during a long period of peace and stability. It sucks, but that's how things usually go.
There is also a little interesting thought Yugopnik added on this topic. Hyper-masculinity can be easily twisted towards socialist ends. I paraphrase:"Do you think its manly to get assfucked by your boss abd just take it?"
Capitalism can be broken by getting the means of production into the hands of the workers, and during that period feminism tended to also always gain a lot of ground.
I'd say take the wins where we get them. Chauvinist socialists still beat hyper chauvinist fascists any day.
Thats the thing tho, those people have a very different view of what socialism is, compared to people over here. Conservatism is a big part of it. And today nationalism as well.
And antisemitism too. It is nominally socialism, but it is in no way different that the fascism in ukraine. Like the names of the ideologies here are just for aesthetics, the underlying actual beliefs and dispositions are the same. The socialism espoused here is not the words of Lenin, or Marx or whatever, but a jerkoff over tanks with red stars, strong masculine hierarchy and the ability to make the gays go away. There is very little material analysis going on, and very little Marxism and very little interest in worker controlled means of production.
And I personally do not have the time to wait for the long time of peace and stability to pass to be treated like a human being or not murdered on the streets.
So no, this is not a win for socialism, or a win at all, beyond two fascist factions fighting each other being a win.
Call it critical support and move away. I wouldn't have the nerve to wait through the long period of peace either, mostly because it'd take generations, but what can you do? It really is the only way that progressive social changes have occured historically.
The presence of exploitative capitalism plunging people into poverty surely doesn't help.
I mean, Ideally, you get a Vanguard party to lead and correct the people's reactionary views via discourse and using the Mass Line to direct the people's frustration to it's actual material causes.
Unfortunately, the Communist parties of these regions are mostly moribund with 90s era leaders, though there are some positive exceptions and young progressive factions.
It really is the only way that progressive social changes have occured historically.
Not really. Progressive changes occur through struggle and direct action fairly often. Relying on purely history is pretty reactive and does not guarantee you anywhere nearly the same degree of success.
I dont mind critically supporting things, but this aint one of the situation that deserves any.
Of course it's direct actions and struggles that make way for progressive changes, but it's a lot easier to concentrate on those without the boot of capital pushing down on your neck.
Chauvinist socialists are far from optimal, but also the best you can hope for in the region right now.
Chauvinism, just like other conservative/regressive ideas can not be done away by force. It requires the culture to gradually change, preferably during a long period of peace and stability. It sucks, but that's how things usually go.
There is also a little interesting thought Yugopnik added on this topic. Hyper-masculinity can be easily twisted towards socialist ends. I paraphrase:"Do you think its manly to get assfucked by your boss abd just take it?"
Capitalism can be broken by getting the means of production into the hands of the workers, and during that period feminism tended to also always gain a lot of ground.
I'd say take the wins where we get them. Chauvinist socialists still beat hyper chauvinist fascists any day.
Thats the thing tho, those people have a very different view of what socialism is, compared to people over here. Conservatism is a big part of it. And today nationalism as well. And antisemitism too. It is nominally socialism, but it is in no way different that the fascism in ukraine. Like the names of the ideologies here are just for aesthetics, the underlying actual beliefs and dispositions are the same. The socialism espoused here is not the words of Lenin, or Marx or whatever, but a jerkoff over tanks with red stars, strong masculine hierarchy and the ability to make the gays go away. There is very little material analysis going on, and very little Marxism and very little interest in worker controlled means of production.
And I personally do not have the time to wait for the long time of peace and stability to pass to be treated like a human being or not murdered on the streets. So no, this is not a win for socialism, or a win at all, beyond two fascist factions fighting each other being a win.
Call it critical support and move away. I wouldn't have the nerve to wait through the long period of peace either, mostly because it'd take generations, but what can you do? It really is the only way that progressive social changes have occured historically.
The presence of exploitative capitalism plunging people into poverty surely doesn't help.
I mean, Ideally, you get a Vanguard party to lead and correct the people's reactionary views via discourse and using the Mass Line to direct the people's frustration to it's actual material causes.
Unfortunately, the Communist parties of these regions are mostly moribund with 90s era leaders, though there are some positive exceptions and young progressive factions.
Not really. Progressive changes occur through struggle and direct action fairly often. Relying on purely history is pretty reactive and does not guarantee you anywhere nearly the same degree of success. I dont mind critically supporting things, but this aint one of the situation that deserves any.
Of course it's direct actions and struggles that make way for progressive changes, but it's a lot easier to concentrate on those without the boot of capital pushing down on your neck.