All makes sense, thank you for clarifying so much and continuing to discuss this.
I think a lot of these concerns will be significantly lessened as material conditions worsen, though of course with the trade off of "people are starving and dying". It could be argued that our material conditions are already as bad as they can be, but I would contest that the pandemic and death from it is unfortunately quite easy for most to ignore. This is not a good thing, and is obviously partially a product of our pacifying culture, but I think the majority of it is just because of selfishness and apathy. People won't really care until they're the one's starving, and unfortunately the disabled and those affected most by Covid were already the ones people refused to listen to. So, those already primed through theory and current action will be much more likely to become "zealots" of communism at this point, driven on by the hunger in their own stomachs. Or more precisely, once Capitalism starts directly contradicting human biological behavior en masse, this contradiction within socialists will partially resolve itself, though not entirely, as discipline will still be necessary.
I'm unsure if entirely eliminating one's desires and want for pleasure is possible, but "stealing" practices from religions and spiritual practice is definitely a promising proposition. Practice of meditation, rituals, mantras, and sometimes even just belief can lessen the difficulty of discipline. This wouldn't necessitate actually adopting those religions and spiritual practice's goals for oneself, but they have been dealing with stuff like this for a while, so to say.
Finally, the easiest solution is to just make pleasure and communist action one and the same. This isn't possible for all actions, but choosing to make as much of "leisure time" as possible just disguised communist praxis could be a legitimate method. For instance, things like the Black Panther's breakfast days and even just organizing politically explicit game clubs.
I have no be-all and end-all answer, and I doubt you do as well. But it's worth thinking about still, I think. Thank you for discussing all of this.
You're welcome, comrade. It was a good discussion to be had and I think we are both refining our thoughts here so that we can better articulate them later.
I agree that religion has a lot to offer on the topic - I know a lot of people have distaste for it here and elsewhere but I think religion can be reclaimed from capitalism's corrosive influence; not only would they provide a basis for praxis in terms of sustained discipline but such a movement could re-align communists with the masses who are still largely devout.
Love the comment on making the everyday leisure political, too. Many obstacles to deal with on the way to that but it needs to be done so that the common person can exercise their politics as often as they want and in a manner that adds up.
This is completely irrelevant, but i think it's worth mentioning that apparently there's a branch of Buddhism, that re-contextualizes it's practices as elements and weapons in the class struggle, and claims that monkhood and the seeking of Enlightenment branch from misconceptions of Buddha's teachings, claiming that he was actually a proto-Marxist, not a typical philosopher or preacher.
Now obviously this is a very extreme, if not simply outright insulting branch of thought to normal Buddhists, and it was probably made by a Nazi or some shit, or I'm misremembering what I heard about it, but it is at least an example of how people with no faith (like, most likely, me) in any kind of religion or even spirituality can still benefit from it and ultimately even influence it.
I don't think it's really worth starting a whole discussion about it, but it is heartwarming to know (at least with Liberation Theology) that weirdo commies that can't shut up about Lenin exist in every social circle, and we just have to connect with them.
All makes sense, thank you for clarifying so much and continuing to discuss this.
I think a lot of these concerns will be significantly lessened as material conditions worsen, though of course with the trade off of "people are starving and dying". It could be argued that our material conditions are already as bad as they can be, but I would contest that the pandemic and death from it is unfortunately quite easy for most to ignore. This is not a good thing, and is obviously partially a product of our pacifying culture, but I think the majority of it is just because of selfishness and apathy. People won't really care until they're the one's starving, and unfortunately the disabled and those affected most by Covid were already the ones people refused to listen to. So, those already primed through theory and current action will be much more likely to become "zealots" of communism at this point, driven on by the hunger in their own stomachs. Or more precisely, once Capitalism starts directly contradicting human biological behavior en masse, this contradiction within socialists will partially resolve itself, though not entirely, as discipline will still be necessary.
I'm unsure if entirely eliminating one's desires and want for pleasure is possible, but "stealing" practices from religions and spiritual practice is definitely a promising proposition. Practice of meditation, rituals, mantras, and sometimes even just belief can lessen the difficulty of discipline. This wouldn't necessitate actually adopting those religions and spiritual practice's goals for oneself, but they have been dealing with stuff like this for a while, so to say.
Finally, the easiest solution is to just make pleasure and communist action one and the same. This isn't possible for all actions, but choosing to make as much of "leisure time" as possible just disguised communist praxis could be a legitimate method. For instance, things like the Black Panther's breakfast days and even just organizing politically explicit game clubs.
I have no be-all and end-all answer, and I doubt you do as well. But it's worth thinking about still, I think. Thank you for discussing all of this.
You're welcome, comrade. It was a good discussion to be had and I think we are both refining our thoughts here so that we can better articulate them later.
I agree that religion has a lot to offer on the topic - I know a lot of people have distaste for it here and elsewhere but I think religion can be reclaimed from capitalism's corrosive influence; not only would they provide a basis for praxis in terms of sustained discipline but such a movement could re-align communists with the masses who are still largely devout.
Love the comment on making the everyday leisure political, too. Many obstacles to deal with on the way to that but it needs to be done so that the common person can exercise their politics as often as they want and in a manner that adds up.
This is completely irrelevant, but i think it's worth mentioning that apparently there's a branch of Buddhism, that re-contextualizes it's practices as elements and weapons in the class struggle, and claims that monkhood and the seeking of Enlightenment branch from misconceptions of Buddha's teachings, claiming that he was actually a proto-Marxist, not a typical philosopher or preacher.
Now obviously this is a very extreme, if not simply outright insulting branch of thought to normal Buddhists, and it was probably made by a Nazi or some shit, or I'm misremembering what I heard about it, but it is at least an example of how people with no faith (like, most likely, me) in any kind of religion or even spirituality can still benefit from it and ultimately even influence it.
I don't think it's really worth starting a whole discussion about it, but it is heartwarming to know (at least with Liberation Theology) that weirdo commies that can't shut up about Lenin exist in every social circle, and we just have to connect with them.