That's a misrepresentation of the struggle sessions I've seen here on this site around SWERFs, but maybe we saw different threads.
The struggle sessions tend to be cishet men ranting about ideals for a communist utopia while actual sex workers reiterate why we're not human trafficking victims and that claiming "sex work is SA" is extremely offensive and misogynistic. Ironically, many of those same people with SWERF views tend to claim they are "strictly rational".
Most sex workers are not against programs that help people shift to other industries. We are against programs that involve the police, criminalization, and the American carceral industry.
The struggle sessions tend to be cishet men ranting about ideals for a communist utopia while actual sex workers reiterate why we’re not human trafficking victims and that claiming “sex work is SA” is extremely offensive and misogynistic. Ironically, many of those same people with SWERF views tend to claim they are “strictly rational”.
But also people who have sex workers in the past get screamed at by you for saying it. You're entirely unwilling to accept that there are former sex workers who look back on their time having done sex work as one of economic coercion and that we feel much of it was sexual assault.
Last time this topic came up I got attacked so viciously by several people here that I've stopped participating in the topic and frankly every time it comes up I consider no longer participating on the site altogether because there is absolutely zero nuance at all and the level of viciousness that occurs is appalling.
I don't think I joined in with previous struggle sessions, mostly lurking and upvoting people who were arguing against SWERFs. I validate and support anyone who is a former sex worker and feels their experiences were SA. I hope they are safe now and can heal from those experiences.
I set a clear boundary of rejecting attempts by others to insist I am being SA'd when that is not my personal experience with sex work. I will continue to reject that framing when it is directed towards me as it feels like someone encroaching on my body and attempting to retroactively SA me. I will also speak out against the idea that sex work is by default somehow SA.
Full support, love, and solidarity for all former and present sex workers. I try to leave space for nuance and I hope my comments show that, upvoted you because I appreciate you as a person and as a part of this site. :anarchy-heart:
I'm terrible with names so you may well have not done!
For me, I have a big problem when it comes to discussing my views of the economic element. For example, one of my views aligns with others that you've been very mad at elsewhere in the thread -- I do think that sex work under capitalism is quite difficult to separate from sexual assault because of the economic coercion inherent to work under capitalism. I would have had EXACTLY the same view as you while I was doing the work, it was only afterwards and with a perspective that no longer involved it being in my economic interests to defend it that my view became as it is now.
Like, I really don't like falling out with people over it. I don't want to exclude sex workers from the support, rights and care that they ABSOLUTELY need. But I do think that people inside the industry have opinions that are influenced by the economic interests they hold and I think people have a difficult time admitting that. I think the opinions of people those currently doing it vs those who have done it in the past tend to be a bit more... Complicated. I think people inside the industry that rely on it as an income source also literally can't even entertain thinking about the topic because it could materially destroy them, I know several people who upon exiting the industry became pretty broken by it, finally having no economic incentive to maintain the emotional coping-mechanisms they constructed in their head then led to a lot of repressed stuff exploding out.
It's hard. Especially when people who are currently doing it rely on it and seem fine, I am worried about them later though given my experience and what I've seen with some others. Not all of course, at least not to my knowledge, but yeah.
Probably the only topic I am pretty scared of discussing on this site to be honest.
Thank you for sharing your perspective with me, I'm glad that you're in a better situation.
:anarchy-heart:
It's such a balance because like another user mentioned, this site is one of the only non-SWERFy communities with ML's I've found online. Most of the orgs I've been around IRL were fine, thankfully.
I personally support full decriminalization to get the police further away from everyone. If there was an actual social safety net following a revolution, then conversations around abolition could maybe be realistic. As it is, I've known women who found themselves deported or incarcerated after being "rescued".
My experience online when talking about sex work is that I have to come out of the gate ready to fight or I will be dismissed, talked down to, and dehumanized. I try to temper that reflex as much as I can in places I know are safe.
The problem I think that exists is that since my experience is that I believe the economic coercion made it sexual assault, the problem we run into is that our experiences become diametrically opposed.
By that I mean that it's impossible for me to believe that economic coercion = sexual assault and for you to believe that it's not sexual assault. One of us must be wrong. The problem here is that when it comes to respecting "experiences", which is something we all mostly want to do because it makes it easier to tell each other we still see one another as dignified humans, if we disagree on this then we must disagree on the experience in some way.
This then leads to.... Vicious results. People recognise that these two experiences can't coexist and one camp (usually those still in sex work) tends to get hyper-aggressive, I actually understand this reaction, I get aggressive about protecting my means of survival as well. But it's difficult.
I do think that people's views on this topic tend to change when they don't have that personal economic interest. And in a sort of protective instinct way it makes me very concerned. It's difficult of course, because this concern can be seen as "talking down to" someone, I've seen enough people come out of the industry and then just break afterwards to feel like there's a lot more going on with it than people currently in the industry tend to admit to.
I think a lot of this conversation however tends to not matter much? Like, materially what we want to happen for sex workers isn't that different even if we might disagree on the matter of economic coercion. We both want protections for sex workers, want them to be able to continue doing that work (because you can't just abolish the industry anyway) and want a future where that economic coercion is eliminated. What happens after that is so far off in the distance and so far outside of our current experiences it's not worth imagining.
while actual sex workers reiterate why we’re not human trafficking victims and that claiming “sex work is SA” is extremely offensive and misogynistic
A lot of the issues in these struggle sessions is that the solutions and experiences discussed often regard very different parts of the global sex worker experience ,both legit in their own context. So when the Marxist Leninist analysis ,handling ,history and theory regarding sex work is informed and rooted in the conditions of nations that had successfull or large ML movements (basicaly most non western european and non USA developing nations) while the sex worker experiences and viewpoints that dominate the discussion online are mostly from US and western european based sex workers who often are involved with Only Fans or amateur pornography (totally legit of course but vastly different to what sex work is and was in the developing world) there is a large disconect in the conclusions of what is or isnt coercive and sexual assault, what are the conditions, hazards and alternatives and what choice and concent is .
A sex worker on twitter posting "We sex workers are just doing what we like and arent sex trafficing victims and ours is a legit occupation that should be treated like any other and there should be X and Y things under communists and communists should believe Z and A" is most likely correct for a very large section of sex workers in similar conditions as them but its a very shaky claim when extrapolated to different conditions and backgrounds that exist for tens of millions of other worldwide. So a pushback from communist against that ,coming from the fact that communism historicaly had and has to resolve the conditions of the latter group is SWERF-y in the context that the poster is tweeting from but not in a lot of others worldwide. A reply like "porn is filmed rape" is insulting and contrary to the experiences of the person tweeting and a ton of westerner sex workers and it shouldnt be stated as if it applies to them but also porn IS filmed rape more often than not world wide cause porn IS filmed rape in the conditions and industries of most developing nations and historicaly and a statement like that in a vacuum or about specific but large groups and nations isnt any more reactionary or non marxist than saying that it isnt rape
So at any time statements and counterstatements happen we should be clear in what context we are working from and be aware how universal or not it is. Are these actual sex workers and their experiences representative of how the "sex industry" works and opperates in developing or formerly colonized nations. A lot of sex workers in Western Europe or the US may be absolutely correct on the nuance of it being the job of their chosing that they enjoy and should that should be supported and protected and rejecting of the "human trafficing label". Does this adequetly reflect what "sex work" is in thailand, phillipines , Africa or Latin America? Its conditions and how it connects with sex turism and with the legacy and traumas of the still recent feudalism and colonialism ? The margin of choice and scale of trafficing and sex slavery that constitutes the "industry" there? Does it reflect the experience and needs of millions of women in eastern europe in the 90s when just 5-10 years prior whould have been in the path of free education, housing ,healthcare and job of their choice were suddenly forced into sexual abuse in comicaly evil mafia controlled industries, grooming and scarring just to put bread on the table and not be homeless. Thats the reallity here and in most of the world and the vast vast majority of sex workers are helpless victims that didnt chose or consent to a life of abuse, sexual assault and destroyed dreams and didnt concent to the future and choice taken away from them.
You are doing swerf apologia willingly or unwillingly, when people say sex work is work they say it meaning sex work done ethically without more undue coercion other than needing to earn a wage undercapitalism while having other feasible choices for work as well (bc every job is done to some degree due to coercion from capitalism) they are not saying that as an endorsement of abusive practices and trafficking in other places, and implying that they might be is also inherently reactionary.
People have the right to use their bodies as they wish, but sex workers usually get singled out bc of deep seeded bigotry, no one tells seemstresses to stop sewing or construction workers to stop working because countless bodily injury and exploitation (practical slavery as well as human trafficking) happens in those fields in the rest of the world.(And an easy way to stop illegal trafficking and practices would be to, crazy idea here decriminalize and regulate it). You and others choose to single sex work out bc you have reactionary beliefs masqueraded as scientifically applying Marxism Leninism .
I would hate for you be involved in active organizing and still have these beliefs, I can’t imagine having a just asking questions attitude about the humanity or dignity of your comrades.
I’m not advocating for telling China etc. they need to change other than offering more support and protection for their people, but this is a western space, like it or not, and it’s unhelpful and usually harmful to make it more complicated than all explotation and abuse especially sexual should end, and, fully supporting your comrades and others who do this kind of work and not constantly making them justify or debate their existence to you.
That's a misrepresentation of the struggle sessions I've seen here on this site around SWERFs, but maybe we saw different threads.
The struggle sessions tend to be cishet men ranting about ideals for a communist utopia while actual sex workers reiterate why we're not human trafficking victims and that claiming "sex work is SA" is extremely offensive and misogynistic. Ironically, many of those same people with SWERF views tend to claim they are "strictly rational".
Most sex workers are not against programs that help people shift to other industries. We are against programs that involve the police, criminalization, and the American carceral industry.
It takes a very minimal amount of time to educate oneself about the violence SWERF orgs like AF3IRM inflict on sex workers and vulnerable peoples. I thankfully don't need to explain to any Marxists or Anarchists that the bourgeois police state cannot be used to “protect proletarian women.”
But also people who have sex workers in the past get screamed at by you for saying it. You're entirely unwilling to accept that there are former sex workers who look back on their time having done sex work as one of economic coercion and that we feel much of it was sexual assault.
Last time this topic came up I got attacked so viciously by several people here that I've stopped participating in the topic and frankly every time it comes up I consider no longer participating on the site altogether because there is absolutely zero nuance at all and the level of viciousness that occurs is appalling.
I don't think I joined in with previous struggle sessions, mostly lurking and upvoting people who were arguing against SWERFs. I validate and support anyone who is a former sex worker and feels their experiences were SA. I hope they are safe now and can heal from those experiences.
I set a clear boundary of rejecting attempts by others to insist I am being SA'd when that is not my personal experience with sex work. I will continue to reject that framing when it is directed towards me as it feels like someone encroaching on my body and attempting to retroactively SA me. I will also speak out against the idea that sex work is by default somehow SA.
Full support, love, and solidarity for all former and present sex workers. I try to leave space for nuance and I hope my comments show that, upvoted you because I appreciate you as a person and as a part of this site. :anarchy-heart:
I'm terrible with names so you may well have not done!
For me, I have a big problem when it comes to discussing my views of the economic element. For example, one of my views aligns with others that you've been very mad at elsewhere in the thread -- I do think that sex work under capitalism is quite difficult to separate from sexual assault because of the economic coercion inherent to work under capitalism. I would have had EXACTLY the same view as you while I was doing the work, it was only afterwards and with a perspective that no longer involved it being in my economic interests to defend it that my view became as it is now.
Like, I really don't like falling out with people over it. I don't want to exclude sex workers from the support, rights and care that they ABSOLUTELY need. But I do think that people inside the industry have opinions that are influenced by the economic interests they hold and I think people have a difficult time admitting that. I think the opinions of people those currently doing it vs those who have done it in the past tend to be a bit more... Complicated. I think people inside the industry that rely on it as an income source also literally can't even entertain thinking about the topic because it could materially destroy them, I know several people who upon exiting the industry became pretty broken by it, finally having no economic incentive to maintain the emotional coping-mechanisms they constructed in their head then led to a lot of repressed stuff exploding out.
It's hard. Especially when people who are currently doing it rely on it and seem fine, I am worried about them later though given my experience and what I've seen with some others. Not all of course, at least not to my knowledge, but yeah.
Probably the only topic I am pretty scared of discussing on this site to be honest.
Thank you for sharing your perspective with me, I'm glad that you're in a better situation.
:anarchy-heart:
It's such a balance because like another user mentioned, this site is one of the only non-SWERFy communities with ML's I've found online. Most of the orgs I've been around IRL were fine, thankfully.
I personally support full decriminalization to get the police further away from everyone. If there was an actual social safety net following a revolution, then conversations around abolition could maybe be realistic. As it is, I've known women who found themselves deported or incarcerated after being "rescued".
My experience online when talking about sex work is that I have to come out of the gate ready to fight or I will be dismissed, talked down to, and dehumanized. I try to temper that reflex as much as I can in places I know are safe.
The problem I think that exists is that since my experience is that I believe the economic coercion made it sexual assault, the problem we run into is that our experiences become diametrically opposed.
By that I mean that it's impossible for me to believe that economic coercion = sexual assault and for you to believe that it's not sexual assault. One of us must be wrong. The problem here is that when it comes to respecting "experiences", which is something we all mostly want to do because it makes it easier to tell each other we still see one another as dignified humans, if we disagree on this then we must disagree on the experience in some way.
This then leads to.... Vicious results. People recognise that these two experiences can't coexist and one camp (usually those still in sex work) tends to get hyper-aggressive, I actually understand this reaction, I get aggressive about protecting my means of survival as well. But it's difficult.
I do think that people's views on this topic tend to change when they don't have that personal economic interest. And in a sort of protective instinct way it makes me very concerned. It's difficult of course, because this concern can be seen as "talking down to" someone, I've seen enough people come out of the industry and then just break afterwards to feel like there's a lot more going on with it than people currently in the industry tend to admit to.
I think a lot of this conversation however tends to not matter much? Like, materially what we want to happen for sex workers isn't that different even if we might disagree on the matter of economic coercion. We both want protections for sex workers, want them to be able to continue doing that work (because you can't just abolish the industry anyway) and want a future where that economic coercion is eliminated. What happens after that is so far off in the distance and so far outside of our current experiences it's not worth imagining.
A lot of the issues in these struggle sessions is that the solutions and experiences discussed often regard very different parts of the global sex worker experience ,both legit in their own context. So when the Marxist Leninist analysis ,handling ,history and theory regarding sex work is informed and rooted in the conditions of nations that had successfull or large ML movements (basicaly most non western european and non USA developing nations) while the sex worker experiences and viewpoints that dominate the discussion online are mostly from US and western european based sex workers who often are involved with Only Fans or amateur pornography (totally legit of course but vastly different to what sex work is and was in the developing world) there is a large disconect in the conclusions of what is or isnt coercive and sexual assault, what are the conditions, hazards and alternatives and what choice and concent is .
A sex worker on twitter posting "We sex workers are just doing what we like and arent sex trafficing victims and ours is a legit occupation that should be treated like any other and there should be X and Y things under communists and communists should believe Z and A" is most likely correct for a very large section of sex workers in similar conditions as them but its a very shaky claim when extrapolated to different conditions and backgrounds that exist for tens of millions of other worldwide. So a pushback from communist against that ,coming from the fact that communism historicaly had and has to resolve the conditions of the latter group is SWERF-y in the context that the poster is tweeting from but not in a lot of others worldwide. A reply like "porn is filmed rape" is insulting and contrary to the experiences of the person tweeting and a ton of westerner sex workers and it shouldnt be stated as if it applies to them but also porn IS filmed rape more often than not world wide cause porn IS filmed rape in the conditions and industries of most developing nations and historicaly and a statement like that in a vacuum or about specific but large groups and nations isnt any more reactionary or non marxist than saying that it isnt rape
So at any time statements and counterstatements happen we should be clear in what context we are working from and be aware how universal or not it is. Are these actual sex workers and their experiences representative of how the "sex industry" works and opperates in developing or formerly colonized nations. A lot of sex workers in Western Europe or the US may be absolutely correct on the nuance of it being the job of their chosing that they enjoy and should that should be supported and protected and rejecting of the "human trafficing label". Does this adequetly reflect what "sex work" is in thailand, phillipines , Africa or Latin America? Its conditions and how it connects with sex turism and with the legacy and traumas of the still recent feudalism and colonialism ? The margin of choice and scale of trafficing and sex slavery that constitutes the "industry" there? Does it reflect the experience and needs of millions of women in eastern europe in the 90s when just 5-10 years prior whould have been in the path of free education, housing ,healthcare and job of their choice were suddenly forced into sexual abuse in comicaly evil mafia controlled industries, grooming and scarring just to put bread on the table and not be homeless. Thats the reallity here and in most of the world and the vast vast majority of sex workers are helpless victims that didnt chose or consent to a life of abuse, sexual assault and destroyed dreams and didnt concent to the future and choice taken away from them.
You are doing swerf apologia willingly or unwillingly, when people say sex work is work they say it meaning sex work done ethically without more undue coercion other than needing to earn a wage undercapitalism while having other feasible choices for work as well (bc every job is done to some degree due to coercion from capitalism) they are not saying that as an endorsement of abusive practices and trafficking in other places, and implying that they might be is also inherently reactionary.
People have the right to use their bodies as they wish, but sex workers usually get singled out bc of deep seeded bigotry, no one tells seemstresses to stop sewing or construction workers to stop working because countless bodily injury and exploitation (practical slavery as well as human trafficking) happens in those fields in the rest of the world.(And an easy way to stop illegal trafficking and practices would be to, crazy idea here decriminalize and regulate it). You and others choose to single sex work out bc you have reactionary beliefs masqueraded as scientifically applying Marxism Leninism .
I would hate for you be involved in active organizing and still have these beliefs, I can’t imagine having a just asking questions attitude about the humanity or dignity of your comrades.
I’m not advocating for telling China etc. they need to change other than offering more support and protection for their people, but this is a western space, like it or not, and it’s unhelpful and usually harmful to make it more complicated than all explotation and abuse especially sexual should end, and, fully supporting your comrades and others who do this kind of work and not constantly making them justify or debate their existence to you.