Even if sex work or the porn industry is across the board illegal in China and before pulling out the accusations of concervativism or trying to do analysis based on western developed nations sex worker expeience, we should understand that in the collective memory of nations that were brutaly colonized and feudal a couple of generations ago "sex work" and the related industries mean and evoke completely different things and social/historical traumas.
After the Chinese Revolution what was "sex work" to the Chinese masses minds but the basicaly sex slavery of tens of millions of peasant women to the rich landlord class and to the westerners in the big cities. What was prostitution but the humiliation and rape of millions of "comfort women" to the Japanese colonialists. What else was to be done for the liberation of women based on their lived experiences and emotions but try to abolish prostitution and sex related exploitation.
Even if it has to be readjusted somewhat with the times and regulated into more sustainable ways their stances on this and similarly on drugs (for similar historical reasons and experiences) are very understandable and legit
The "comfort women" thing has a way of staying in the news because Japanese politicians like denying it.
this could be about abolishing sex trafficking.
Copying part of my comment from elsewhere: I don’t think being conservative (in the sense of reserved) should be mistaken for being reactionary. Pornography, as it exists in the world today, is a huge market for nominally illegal forms of porn, particularly involving minors and non-consenting parties of various kinds (intoxication, voyeurism, revenge porn, trafficking, etc.). These things are difficult to account for and may require systems more sophisticated than China currently has.
Does that mean the specific policies they have now are completely correct and rational? Probably not, just more points to consider.
I like this comment. Providing context without necessarily condoning.
According to the penal code, it is a crime to disseminate/organize viewings of pornographic materials, not a crime to make them or view them. For the latter it’s possible one can still receive administrative penalties (eg detention up to 15 days + citation + fines). Perhaps similar to the case of prostitution: it is a crime to run a prostitution ring, not a crime to either provide or solicit, except both will receive administrative penalties.
Edit: Chinese social laws are quite interesting. You know the whole thing about china being very draconian on marijuana? Apparently you can possess up to 30 kilograms (66 lbs) of weed without it being a crime. I don’t smoke but isn’t that a lot … ?
that sort of comes across like Cuba after Batista was deposed, as exploitative sex work of young people was widespread. prostitution was legal for the worker, but pimps/madams were made illegal and prosecuted severely while johns/customers were fined. over time, the legal age for sex work increased. at least, this is how it was explained to me.
Do you or anyone else have any reading material on this? I want to learn more about socialist countries' approaches to sex work/the sex industry, but I never see them discussed in any detail.
I don’t smoke but isn’t that a lot … ?
Nah man I go through that in like a weekend
I highly doubt growing is legal. Plus they can still confiscate it all and issue an administrative sanction (fine and/or detention) if they find one using and/or possessing. You want to consult this: http://lawinfochina.com/display.aspx?id=12605&lib=law. This is the administrative law (not the penal code) through which China handles stuffs like prostitution, pornography, drugs when it’s just about individuals doing their own shit as opposed to rings, drug trade, cartels, etc
China is not socially liberal, cmon.
Are you guys trying to fit the facts to a desire for China to be socially liberal?
Of course China isn’t. Nor is it ideologically vested in being socially conservative. :shrug-outta-hecks:
so many “communists” whose politics might be better described as Chinese nationalism or in some cases anti Americanism / anti Westism have such terrible takes about women and sex work due to having surrendered their abilities to critically think to only see things in terms of everything about my camp is good and correct and everything about the other camp is bad and incorrect
Having bad politics is not an excuse to be a swerf or just a general sexist / bigot (on top of this usually also get a bit of eastern fetishism and orientalism thrown in bc vast majority of the crowd are themselves western yts who think they are absolved of this bc of their politics)
This is tolerated and even encouraged in other online spaces and that’s why this struggle session happens once a month.
(not directing this at op onbviously)
so many “communists” whose politics might be better described as Chinese nationalism or in some cases anti Americanism / anti Westism have such terrible takes about women and sex work due to having surrendered their abilities to critically think to only see things in terms of everything about my camp is good and correct and everything about the other camp is bad and incorrect
This is absolutely a dynamic I've noticed. In addition to that, the imperial core is rampant with misogyny and classism. A number of otherwise functional leftists refuse to self-crit and address their own misogyny. The end result is they self-select for political reviews that allow them to reframe and retain as much of their existing prejudices as possible. "Patriotic Socialists" and Stupidpol are two other examples.
This is tolerated and even encouraged in other online spaces and that’s why this struggle session happens once a month.
It's discouraging how widespread SWERF viewpoints are. I cannot safely organize with someone that will happily report me to the pigs. I'm not surprised the federal government and LEOs spend so much money supporting SWERF groups like AF3IRM
I thankfully don’t need to explain to any actual Marxists or Anarchists that the bourgeois police state cannot be used to “protect proletarian women.”
Regarding this website: There's also the fact that people get called "SWERF" for recognizing the present reality that most prostitution (though not necessarily other forms of sex work) is driven by destitution and efforts should be made to help workers leave that profession if they so choose as well as make it safer for those who prefer it.
Regarding the PRC: As it is, I don't think being conservative (in the sense of reserved) should be mistaken for being reactionary. Pornography, as it exists in the world today, is a huge market for nominally illegal forms of porn, particularly involving minors and non-consenting parties of various kinds (intoxication, voyeurism, revenge porn, trafficking, etc.). These things are difficult to account for and may require systems more sophisticated than China currently has.
Does that mean the specific policies they have now are completely correct and rational? Probably not, just more points to consider.
That's a misrepresentation of the struggle sessions I've seen here on this site around SWERFs, but maybe we saw different threads.
The struggle sessions tend to be cishet men ranting about ideals for a communist utopia while actual sex workers reiterate why we're not human trafficking victims and that claiming "sex work is SA" is extremely offensive and misogynistic. Ironically, many of those same people with SWERF views tend to claim they are "strictly rational".
Most sex workers are not against programs that help people shift to other industries. We are against programs that involve the police, criminalization, and the American carceral industry.
It takes a very minimal amount of time to educate oneself about the violence SWERF orgs like AF3IRM inflict on sex workers and vulnerable peoples. I thankfully don't need to explain to any Marxists or Anarchists that the bourgeois police state cannot be used to “protect proletarian women.”
The struggle sessions tend to be cishet men ranting about ideals for a communist utopia while actual sex workers reiterate why we’re not human trafficking victims and that claiming “sex work is SA” is extremely offensive and misogynistic. Ironically, many of those same people with SWERF views tend to claim they are “strictly rational”.
But also people who have sex workers in the past get screamed at by you for saying it. You're entirely unwilling to accept that there are former sex workers who look back on their time having done sex work as one of economic coercion and that we feel much of it was sexual assault.
Last time this topic came up I got attacked so viciously by several people here that I've stopped participating in the topic and frankly every time it comes up I consider no longer participating on the site altogether because there is absolutely zero nuance at all and the level of viciousness that occurs is appalling.
I don't think I joined in with previous struggle sessions, mostly lurking and upvoting people who were arguing against SWERFs. I validate and support anyone who is a former sex worker and feels their experiences were SA. I hope they are safe now and can heal from those experiences.
I set a clear boundary of rejecting attempts by others to insist I am being SA'd when that is not my personal experience with sex work. I will continue to reject that framing when it is directed towards me as it feels like someone encroaching on my body and attempting to retroactively SA me. I will also speak out against the idea that sex work is by default somehow SA.
Full support, love, and solidarity for all former and present sex workers. I try to leave space for nuance and I hope my comments show that, upvoted you because I appreciate you as a person and as a part of this site. :anarchy-heart:
I'm terrible with names so you may well have not done!
For me, I have a big problem when it comes to discussing my views of the economic element. For example, one of my views aligns with others that you've been very mad at elsewhere in the thread -- I do think that sex work under capitalism is quite difficult to separate from sexual assault because of the economic coercion inherent to work under capitalism. I would have had EXACTLY the same view as you while I was doing the work, it was only afterwards and with a perspective that no longer involved it being in my economic interests to defend it that my view became as it is now.
Like, I really don't like falling out with people over it. I don't want to exclude sex workers from the support, rights and care that they ABSOLUTELY need. But I do think that people inside the industry have opinions that are influenced by the economic interests they hold and I think people have a difficult time admitting that. I think the opinions of people those currently doing it vs those who have done it in the past tend to be a bit more... Complicated. I think people inside the industry that rely on it as an income source also literally can't even entertain thinking about the topic because it could materially destroy them, I know several people who upon exiting the industry became pretty broken by it, finally having no economic incentive to maintain the emotional coping-mechanisms they constructed in their head then led to a lot of repressed stuff exploding out.
It's hard. Especially when people who are currently doing it rely on it and seem fine, I am worried about them later though given my experience and what I've seen with some others. Not all of course, at least not to my knowledge, but yeah.
Probably the only topic I am pretty scared of discussing on this site to be honest.
Thank you for sharing your perspective with me, I'm glad that you're in a better situation.
:anarchy-heart:
It's such a balance because like another user mentioned, this site is one of the only non-SWERFy communities with ML's I've found online. Most of the orgs I've been around IRL were fine, thankfully.
I personally support full decriminalization to get the police further away from everyone. If there was an actual social safety net following a revolution, then conversations around abolition could maybe be realistic. As it is, I've known women who found themselves deported or incarcerated after being "rescued".
My experience online when talking about sex work is that I have to come out of the gate ready to fight or I will be dismissed, talked down to, and dehumanized. I try to temper that reflex as much as I can in places I know are safe.
The problem I think that exists is that since my experience is that I believe the economic coercion made it sexual assault, the problem we run into is that our experiences become diametrically opposed.
By that I mean that it's impossible for me to believe that economic coercion = sexual assault and for you to believe that it's not sexual assault. One of us must be wrong. The problem here is that when it comes to respecting "experiences", which is something we all mostly want to do because it makes it easier to tell each other we still see one another as dignified humans, if we disagree on this then we must disagree on the experience in some way.
This then leads to.... Vicious results. People recognise that these two experiences can't coexist and one camp (usually those still in sex work) tends to get hyper-aggressive, I actually understand this reaction, I get aggressive about protecting my means of survival as well. But it's difficult.
I do think that people's views on this topic tend to change when they don't have that personal economic interest. And in a sort of protective instinct way it makes me very concerned. It's difficult of course, because this concern can be seen as "talking down to" someone, I've seen enough people come out of the industry and then just break afterwards to feel like there's a lot more going on with it than people currently in the industry tend to admit to.
I think a lot of this conversation however tends to not matter much? Like, materially what we want to happen for sex workers isn't that different even if we might disagree on the matter of economic coercion. We both want protections for sex workers, want them to be able to continue doing that work (because you can't just abolish the industry anyway) and want a future where that economic coercion is eliminated. What happens after that is so far off in the distance and so far outside of our current experiences it's not worth imagining.
while actual sex workers reiterate why we’re not human trafficking victims and that claiming “sex work is SA” is extremely offensive and misogynistic
A lot of the issues in these struggle sessions is that the solutions and experiences discussed often regard very different parts of the global sex worker experience ,both legit in their own context. So when the Marxist Leninist analysis ,handling ,history and theory regarding sex work is informed and rooted in the conditions of nations that had successfull or large ML movements (basicaly most non western european and non USA developing nations) while the sex worker experiences and viewpoints that dominate the discussion online are mostly from US and western european based sex workers who often are involved with Only Fans or amateur pornography (totally legit of course but vastly different to what sex work is and was in the developing world) there is a large disconect in the conclusions of what is or isnt coercive and sexual assault, what are the conditions, hazards and alternatives and what choice and concent is .
A sex worker on twitter posting "We sex workers are just doing what we like and arent sex trafficing victims and ours is a legit occupation that should be treated like any other and there should be X and Y things under communists and communists should believe Z and A" is most likely correct for a very large section of sex workers in similar conditions as them but its a very shaky claim when extrapolated to different conditions and backgrounds that exist for tens of millions of other worldwide. So a pushback from communist against that ,coming from the fact that communism historicaly had and has to resolve the conditions of the latter group is SWERF-y in the context that the poster is tweeting from but not in a lot of others worldwide. A reply like "porn is filmed rape" is insulting and contrary to the experiences of the person tweeting and a ton of westerner sex workers and it shouldnt be stated as if it applies to them but also porn IS filmed rape more often than not world wide cause porn IS filmed rape in the conditions and industries of most developing nations and historicaly and a statement like that in a vacuum or about specific but large groups and nations isnt any more reactionary or non marxist than saying that it isnt rape
So at any time statements and counterstatements happen we should be clear in what context we are working from and be aware how universal or not it is. Are these actual sex workers and their experiences representative of how the "sex industry" works and opperates in developing or formerly colonized nations. A lot of sex workers in Western Europe or the US may be absolutely correct on the nuance of it being the job of their chosing that they enjoy and should that should be supported and protected and rejecting of the "human trafficing label". Does this adequetly reflect what "sex work" is in thailand, phillipines , Africa or Latin America? Its conditions and how it connects with sex turism and with the legacy and traumas of the still recent feudalism and colonialism ? The margin of choice and scale of trafficing and sex slavery that constitutes the "industry" there? Does it reflect the experience and needs of millions of women in eastern europe in the 90s when just 5-10 years prior whould have been in the path of free education, housing ,healthcare and job of their choice were suddenly forced into sexual abuse in comicaly evil mafia controlled industries, grooming and scarring just to put bread on the table and not be homeless. Thats the reallity here and in most of the world and the vast vast majority of sex workers are helpless victims that didnt chose or consent to a life of abuse, sexual assault and destroyed dreams and didnt concent to the future and choice taken away from them.
You are doing swerf apologia willingly or unwillingly, when people say sex work is work they say it meaning sex work done ethically without more undue coercion other than needing to earn a wage undercapitalism while having other feasible choices for work as well (bc every job is done to some degree due to coercion from capitalism) they are not saying that as an endorsement of abusive practices and trafficking in other places, and implying that they might be is also inherently reactionary.
People have the right to use their bodies as they wish, but sex workers usually get singled out bc of deep seeded bigotry, no one tells seemstresses to stop sewing or construction workers to stop working because countless bodily injury and exploitation (practical slavery as well as human trafficking) happens in those fields in the rest of the world.(And an easy way to stop illegal trafficking and practices would be to, crazy idea here decriminalize and regulate it). You and others choose to single sex work out bc you have reactionary beliefs masqueraded as scientifically applying Marxism Leninism .
I would hate for you be involved in active organizing and still have these beliefs, I can’t imagine having a just asking questions attitude about the humanity or dignity of your comrades.
I’m not advocating for telling China etc. they need to change other than offering more support and protection for their people, but this is a western space, like it or not, and it’s unhelpful and usually harmful to make it more complicated than all explotation and abuse especially sexual should end, and, fully supporting your comrades and others who do this kind of work and not constantly making them justify or debate their existence to you.
Yeah, of course, in a communist society where there was no monetary necessity to do so it would be much less problematic, but that doesn’t change the fact that’s it’s still done and still work on top of being rather widespread especially in places where it’s illegal and pushes those people who do it to the fringes of society bc they are now criminals.
Most people who fit into the SWERF category are men (usually in socialist spaces specifically) who don’t consider it work / thinks it’s degrading to do sex work inherently bc of various brainworms and want to tell women what they should and can do with their bodies. And in that case the term is appropriate, for example if you think it’s shameful and should be illegal to run an only fans, you are a swerf. And it’s not such to acknowledge that the industry has a lot of terrible things going on as long as you’re coming from a place of that being the problem and not women (or people of any gender or intentity though it’s overwhelmingly women in practice) being able to choose what they do with their bodies as the issue.
I don’t think China is necessarily completely wrong for banning it, but it does push their own people to the fringes of society and that does not seem like something in line w socialism. Obviously it’s classified as a crime but sex work is not inherently wrong (unless you are a bigot), although in practice it often is negative, but, if it was regulated the things that make it in practice so negative for people could be minimized and the workers have more power.
Most people who fit into the SWERF category are men (usually in socialist spaces specifically) who don’t consider it work / thinks it’s degrading to do sex work inherently
and yet they still subscribe to our OnlyFans and have pornhub bookmarked :thonk:
thank you for everything you wrote here, you described my own views perfectly.
:soviet-heart: I’m glad this is one of the few leftist spaces where terf, swerf, etc. shit doesn’t fly. The egregious user should be banned and it will be disappointing if he is not (unless they do some self crit and apologize)
hopefully, they and others with similar views gain some perspective from listening to what you have to say too, and even if they don’t like the idea of it personally, hopefully they learn to genuinely respect sex workers and treat them with the full dignity a comrades deserves
China still has some conservative ideas. It's still in a transitional stage of communism. That doesn't negate or undermine all the good stuff.
China is also behind on gay rights. But it's not some incredible gotcha like wreckers think. They're moving in the right direction while the West is moving backwards. Obviously it's not perfect, or even perfectly communist.
Rising out of mass slavery is infinitely better than going deeper into it.
looks at U.S Prisons :huh:
Talked to a Chinese girl on HelloTalk who was shocked that it was legal over here.
China just keeps winning.
You have to keep in mind that China is still a developing country. Most developing countries still have very conservative viewpoints and positions on porn are one of them. Cuba also heavily restricts it. There could be a change sometime in the future, maybe one that's more regulated.
I wouldn't phrase it this way as much as different countries will have different material conditions. Socialist countries will pass laws that respond to those conditions in a way that most benefits working people there.
China and Cuba both had extensive human trafficking issues tied into sex work and colonialism, so a lot of sex work is illegal or banned there. Same reasons both countries have drug prohibition. I'm not going to criticism a country with AES if they're taking care of people in other ways.
A developing country is one with a lower standard of living that hasn't quite reached that of wealthier countries.
Obligatory Parenti, "these countries aren't underdeveloped, they're over exploited"! https://youtu.be/6Bzhe3eUMmg
123+ comments about this and maybe 5 concern the actual specifics of Chinas laws and policys about porn.
29 upvotes and 108 comments as of now, regarding a discussion about porn. Hooooo boy I'm really gonna regret digging into these comments aren't I?
A thought experiment:
If two people decide to film themselves having sex and post it online, who's the rapist? Who's being raped?
People don’t post themselves having sex.
Have you ever heard of exhibitionism? Yes, some people like to post videos of themselves. A lot even do it for free!
It is an incredibly shameful act and is completely degrading,
I think this speaks more about the sex negative attitudes that YOU have internalized.
I think this speaks more about the sex negative attitudes that YOU have internalized.
:10000-com:
Exhibitionism is a product of class society itself and the need for reassurance and knowledge. It is a symptom that is of capitalist society and should be treated as such, not to allow it.
Tell me how homosexuality is bourgeois decadence next
i always do feel like this sort of thing is gonna go that way :agony-shivering:
Apparently the desire to be looked at in a sexual manner or watched doing sexual acts is unique to capitalism lmaooo. No one else does it apparently.
:agony-shivering:
You made me google this and it's actually true that he visited nudist beaches, damn. Quite cool.
Everytime a guy posts a photo on insta showing their abs they're doing a mild capitalism now, if the underwear band is showing it becomes a medium capitalism, and if grey sweatpants are involved it becomes a mega capitalism.
New Volcel theory just dropped
Comrades, is it counterrevolutionary to want other people to see your genitals? Idk sounds a little bougie to me
This is basic psychoanalysis.
Thanks, Freud.
Even if it does come from capitalism, so what? Fucking communism comes from capitalism. Or, less outrageously: movies and TV and the device you're using to post are all rooted in capitalism. Should we ban them in socialist societies?
Edit: books cancelled for coming from feudalism
One must never mistake psychoanalysis for psychology. D&G are useful for some things, but psychoanalysis is not reflective of reality.
seriously... imagine being that fucking ignorant. it's like someone quoting alchemy grimoires when arguing about modern chemistry.
Exhibitionism is a product of class society itself and the need for reassurance and knowledge. It is a symptom that is of capitalist society and should be treated as such, not to allow it.
I mean not really. For a much milder example here, people post thirst traps on social media showing off their bodies and junk though their underwear all the time, this happens everywhere, it's not just a thing in the west or whatever. Some people like to be seen sexually or doing sexual stuff, regardless of any capitalist society or lack thereof.
I agree with some of what you're saying, I also strongly disagree with the rest of what you're saying. Some people just like to show off sexually towards others. And there's not anything wrong with that as long as it's all consensual. In fact a lot of people would probably enjoy it and do it more if it wasn't for unrealistic messed up beauty standards, societal taboo, etc.
Social media is a product of capitalist society. You don't recognize how what you post is a reflection of the current mode of production in where you live in where imperialism is predominant?
That is true, but some people will still have the desire to be viewed in a sexual manner or observed having sex without capitalism. It existed before capitalism. Some people enjoy showing off their body in varying ways, from a little sexual to extremely sexual, just because they like it. There is nothing inherent to the capitalist mode of production here.
I agree with you on most internet porn though, people are addicted and watch way too much of that stuff. And have really weird libertarian style reactions towards anyone critical of it. Remember that user, who turned out was trying to solicit users though direct messages, throwing a massive temper tantrum when Pornhub removed unverified videos?
In a perfect capitalist world, there would be no patriarchy since women and men would be seen as equal.
the fuck
they're also trying to position sex work and human trafficking as being the same thing
They also clearly haven't spoken to either prostitutes or independent porn "stars".
Exhibitionism is a product of class society itself and the need for reassurance and knowledge
Sounds like pseudoscience to me.
Try listening to prostitutes
Okay. I have. I've heard a variety of beliefs regarding prostitution and "empowerment" from sex workers, because I actually spoke to them and didn't just watch a documentary and decide it was reflective of all sex workers. Turns out a lot of folks like making porn, as long as they aren't doing it in the awful conditions of the professional industry. Some folks even enjoy prostitution. Others don't particularly enjoy sex work, but prefer it to other forms of labor. Others do hate sex work and the violence they are regularly exposed to, although all of those individuals I've spoken to believed they would be significantly safer if prostitution were decriminalized.
Exhibitionism is a product of class society itself and the need for reassurance and knowledge. It is a symptom that is of capitalist society and should be treated as such, not to allow it.
quoting this to save for later because it is hilarious
People don’t post themselves having sex.
People do this all the fucking time.
you are able to reap the sexual enjoyment without feeling “guilty”. The truth is that you should.
Why?
I think there is a context where china's choice to make porn illegal is at the very least understandable. I also am sympathetic to the fact that the porn industry is rife with massive exploitation and human trafficking. Including children.
This guy above though is nuts. He has bad opinions about sex in general and doesn't understand that a consenting couple can post a video of themselves (even for money! Oh no!!)
Ultimately I think its fairly obvious that most sex work is done as a result of material circumstances. Like all labor, this makes sex work a kind of slavery. In order to root out the issue of women having to resort to sex work to feed their families (absolutely not a shameful thing to do by the way) we must address the material circumstances of the population. We should not be punitive with people who are trying to support themselves. We should be extremely punitive with pimps though, who are just human traffickers. With legal porn industry, obviously it must be regulated strictly with the wellbeing of the sex worker in mind.
After material conditions are addressed there will remain a subset of the population who still performs sex work, which would be just fine and good if they find that fulfilling. This is my opinion on sex work.
People don’t post themselves having sex.
:I-was-saying:
I call back to the Zizek quote where the worst slave owners were the ones you treated their slaves nicely, amateur porn is no exception since you are able to reap the sexual enjoyment without feeling “guilty”. The truth is that you should.
:yikes-1::yikes-3:
you should not compare onlyfans to the american slave trade
Do you think imported Asian immigrant class are consensually giving hand jobs to whoever wants a "happy ending". Why do the majority of countries have prostitution illegality, (or look at any socialist country such as the USSR) you'll find your answer.
Do you think imported Asian immigrant class are consensually giving hand jobs to whoever wants a “happy ending”
No, I don't. You still haven't explained how two people posting a video of themselves having sex online is not consensual.
Edit: how long do we usually give conservative debate bros until we ban them?
I'm using this an example because your opinion is clearly that all porn, no matter what, is vile and damaging to women and exploitative and rape.
Not a single point in your list says anything at all about consent. Where did the people posting it get raped?
What if I, a dude according to my genes, take it up the ass from another dude while wearing a dress? I am into that let me assure you.
What if I jerk off with one of those fancy cock sleeves? No one else would be involved. Am I exploiting myself then?
Clearly your take is very reductive and thus bad. Yes lots of women get exploited for porn, no one is arguing otherwise, but not ALL porn is exploitation. It is possible to consent to porn and it is possible to make porn that isn't bad.
Yeah, I'm sure posting a video of my husband and I on Twitter would give people a very unhealthy view of women...
Two men having sex on film is the mass enslavement of women. Right. Do you just come up with the most absurd claims you can whenever responding to a post?
This dude is literally a living stereotype of what chuds think actual leftists are. We need to build more gulags.
Proletarian woman here, the line of thinking you've outlined is reductive, extremely demeaning, and apparently informed by outdated pscyho-analysts instead of actual evidence-based psychology.
Anyway, most socialist countries don’t have this phenomenon of people filming themselves having sex and releasing it
You are completely ignorant. China has a lot of couples who post sex videos. It's not legal, but you don't have to look hard to find a lot of examples.
I have created queer porn and sold it for money. I have also previously worked as an escort. I am not ashamed of either of those things.
All of your writing downplays the factual harm that SWERF ideology inflicts on sex workers, in particular women.
Edit: how long do we usually give conservative debate bros until we ban them?
There are definitely problems with what they are saying, but this is clearly not what being a "debate bro" is, they are just engaging in argument when challenged. Should they be challenged? Of course, they are wrong in part, but answering that challenge doesn't make them a debate bro.
To be fair this person has been here since 2020. This is a common point of disagreement on the left, I don't think we should ban this user
Why do the majority of countries have prostitution illegality
The export of British and/or German insanity via imperialism.
Porn is not always filmed rape. If me and my girlfriend want to have sex on camera and post it, that's porn, but there is no rape involved. Big porn companies, I can see this argument working, but its just false for amateur porn
but its just false for amateur porn
Also ignoring the metric tonnes of amateur porn posted where one participant is too intoxicated to consent, a minor (who is far enough into puberty that there's "plausible deniability"), not aware that they are being filmed, some poor callgirl under the authority of a pimp, and a number of other scenarios.
If you and your gf want to be exhibitionists for money and/or fun, good for you, but let's not pretend that amateur porn is categorically not rape.*
*which is not the same as "let's not pretend it's not categorically rape," because examples like yours do disprove that.
Oh I absolutely recognize that lots of "amateur" porn is rape. In fact a lot of cases of trafficked people fall under "amateur" porn. Sorry I wasn't clear there, I was addressing the point he made that 1. Porn is filmed rape, and 2. A couple making money off of porn doesn't make it rape
My stance with regards to sex work is simple: I believe sex workers should be organized, johns should be send to reeducation, and pimps should face the wall.
It’s funny how police will chase individual prostitutes to the ends of their jurisdiction and beyond, but won’t touch the pimps.
it's the same reason they'll go after "illegal immigrants", but never the business owners who intentionally employ them as cheap labor.
cops protect capital.
Cheers to the part about pimps. Johns are fine, some people want sex :shrug-outta-hecks:
Johns should be sent to reeducation
So, once all the johns are reeducated then what? Who are the clients for the newly organized sex workers? Not sure there's any consistency in your stance on those two groups.
pimps should face the wall
100% full agree there
I hate when people apply western standards to non western countries.
The people who do this are saying a lot more about their own prejudices than they realize.
You can be a consenting sex worker in the west because most people can switch to any job in an instant - you can’t do that outside the west and developed nations much of the time. ‘Sex work’ isn’t positive for everyone.
It shouldn't be equated to the horrendous trafficking faced in China and Korea and still faced somewhat more quietly throughout Southeast Asia (and beyond), but I must point out that many prostitutes even in the west are still doing it out of desperation and still may struggle to escape it should they try to leave.
If they are under the authority of a pimp, they may face violent reprisal, and there are also practices by pimps such as deliberately getting prostitutes addicted to drugs to prevent them from being able to leave.
Your statement stands for other forms of sex work within the west, of course.
If you accept that all wage labor is exploitation, does it not follow then that wage labor in sex work is exploitation?
I don't mean to be smug and high and mighty. I watch porn. But still...unless it's two independent amateurs performing under a system where we can accept that their lives do not depend on it...yeah...it's probably bad.
It is exploitative for the same reasons all wage labor is, which is why it is very suspicious when sex work is singled out.
Individual subjects exist, though? We don't need to -- and indeed shouldn't -- always talk about all forms of exploitation all at once.
There is also the fact that the social context of porn is somewhat unique. It's pretty unusual for college guys to get someone intoxicated in order to coerce them into working at a lumber mill, film it, and post it online under false pretenses for ad revenue, with no regard for how the coerced person may have been given long-term physical and psychological harm from the event.
I think that's more of a distinction of how the exploitation is performed or enforced rather than what the act is. We do have similar things that happen for other forms of labor -- IIRC, children that end up enslaved on cocoa plantations are often sold by their parents to human traffickers under false pretenses that they'll receive an education.
The part that I'm really objecting to here is the notion that pornography is categorically bad. It makes as much sense in my mind as saying agricultural labor is categorically bad because of what I described with human trafficking and child slaves. I agree that human trafficking in sex work is distinctly worse than wage labor and that we must do everything we can to make sex work safe for those who wish to engage in it. But if it is taking place in a form similar to wage labor, or the person is just posting it freely because they like doing it, then I don't think it's uniquely worse than anything else.
I trust you but here's where what you said leads: it reminds me of my old days of being an incel rightoid. You can't talk about ANY injustice unless you talk about ALL injustice all at once, because then you'd be a hypocrite. Which I learned is a tactic to shut down uncomfortable subjects.
It's all exploitation yet we act as though we believe there's degrees to it. Why ever talk about Amazon pee bottles? Nobody has unlimited bathroom time.
Please tell me how all of the gay furry porn I look at is harming women? I am very interested in knowing this.
Proletarian women are able to see how even innocuous “amateur porn” is still exploitative
Stop speaking for me. I do not agree with this.
there’s a lot of sex pests in here
Did the definition of this term just change overnight? I feel like I'm losing my mind . . .
Yeah unfortunately it's the internet so I'm guessing a lot of people here are porn addicts, which would explain that.
Been there, it's not healthy.
Some labor aristocrats enjoy making porn, so being against widespread industrialized sexual exploitation makes you a SWERF.
Saying that paying for consent is rape, which by definition rules out sex work completely, does make one a SWERF.
asuming they’re even a feminist to begin w and not just a bigot and anti sex work :agony-minion:
Saying all porn is rape and you should feel guilty for watching even consensually filmed and posted amateur porn is definitely not SWERF shit, actually
