"ohhhh, punk has been made too widely palatable and for everyone. REAL punks are like presbyterian minister mr rogers!" there are still hardcore bands out there! you can go see them if you want! i bet this person would listen to the ramones and go "umm, he wants to sniff glue? are we glorifying drug addiction now? this is SO not punk!"
there are people in the notes going "yeah! this is so true!"
i think this is part of a broader trend of people feeling to need to justify everything they enjoy, it can't just be a show they remember fondly from when they were a kid, it needs to be punk
This is why I always say, Punk is an aesthetic
It's not an ideology so much as the appearance of one
Plenty of self-described punks are leftist and do righteous shit, but so many are just angry middle-aged kids who want to seem cool
Hence why you always get the
Conservatism is the new Punkshit every copy of years or sonew phone
Smh don't you know phones are bourgeois decadence? Communism is when no iPhone, silly
as a participant of DIY music scenes, that is a difficult pill to swallow. on the one hand principled individuals foster a sense of community around what they do with political outreach front and center, things as simple as pamphlets talking about veganism and such at house shows and vfw halls they themselves have organized.
on the other there are way more people who show up because it's something to do on a saturday night.
They tend to wash out after spending their summers day drinking at the show, hitting on all the underaged girls, and can only remember the style of clothing, and never engaging with any of the present political outreach that's ALWAYS THERE. They've only ever been a warm body that paid $5 to make people uncomfortable like the nihilism they cosplay for is about them as individuals instead of a social one that remains present even today. if they know anything about the history, it's idolizing Syd Vicious for some reason.
When they say
Punk is deadI tend to agree with them.as a participant of DIY music scenes, that is a difficult pill to swallow
DIY isn't exclusive to punk, tho. Punk definitely pioneered it, punk is also likely to still be the genre with the biggest DIY subculture, but DIY as a mode of minimum-capital, non-exploitative, cooperative cultural production that's available to everyone can work in any scene that has diehard, enthusiastic fans. Does that mean that people who organize underground raves are techno punks? Does that mean metal bands that put out records DIY and go on tour sleeping on their fans couches are metal punks?
idk, i'm inclined to say no because then you're at "everything is punk" again. I don't think punk can be meaningfully defined as anything but an aesthetic and a vibe, and that aesthetic and that vibe are very closely tied to DIY, but are also very closely tied to "what if we start DIY, but then it works out too well and we become actual capitalists", aka how indie labels start, something which was also pioneered by punks. And that aesthetic has also from the very start been something that has been co-opted and monetized by established capitalist actors within the cultural industry, sellouts and posers have been a part of punk since before people started to call it punk. As soon as punk became noticeable, there were corporate ghouls who realized that a movement built around aggressive contrarianism was something you can market to suburban teens with rich parents, just as there have always been kids who've genuinely needed punk as a first step to reject the norms of capitalist society.
Punk also always had a revolutionary, liberatory and inclusive side to it and it always had a toxic, nihilist and exclusionary side to it, these have clashed with each other since the very start. As soon as there was hardcore, there were both subversive queer kids who found they could be themselves at punk shows and violent meatheads who went to shows to beat people up and be sex pests in the pit. I agree that the latter should have no part in the scene, but it takes work to keep them out. You have to watch out for people when you don't want punk to be a space that's only safe for white cishet boys who can hold their own in a fight. Building a punk scene that isn't awful, violent shit requires active struggle.
”I think Ronald Reagan was the best President of my lifetime." -Johnny Ramone
Extremely punk
The guys in Skrewdriver probably sniffed glue too, just using drugs isn't really good by itself
punk is about being a contrarian asshole, that's the only requirement. that's why it's good a lot of the time but also contains some massive reactionaries
and i wasn't making a statement about drug use being ipso facto a good thing, simply that the vibes on the people who sincerely say "mr rogers was punk" are not right.
I would agree with that statement, and also with what FlakesBongler said about it being an aesthetic. Ramones were definitely pioneers of punk and many of them were chuds.
I'd rather listen to The Clash out of these early punk bands.
I feel like "punk" gets mis-attributed as "authenticity" so much. Mr. Rodgers seemed like a guy who walked the walk and that gives him authenticity, but it sure doesn't make him punk.
Edit: Ruminated this a bit and I feel like the attribution of "punk" is probably because it's the last widespread cultural touchstone where "authenticity" was an assumed component of it. (I don't think this reflects the reality of it though, the Sex Pistols were a boy band after all).
My punk credibility is super high and yup, also it's been an ongoing thing in a very underground capacity for the last 30 years and people's last mainstream touchstone is the 90s. DIY punk has been an ongoing international network that's grown since the 80s and lets bands from Columbia or Russia play anarchist community centers or peoples basements and still make enough to get home and hopefully some pocket change, bands get well fed and drink for free in any town that has its scene together enough to get touring bands. But yeah, there is a pretty deep and historically long rooted international diy punk network and if you're around long enough you can easily contact just about anyone cause everyone is a friend of a friend and being a Rockstar isn't allowed everyone in the audience is also in bands generally, there isn't really a division between bands and Fans and the worship that comes with it. The second singer for Black Flag lives in BC and picked my friends up from the airport on their first tour. He also still has to work a day job. People just really like punk enough to do this work.
Hippies were mean people pretending to be nice, punks were nice people pretending to be mean—change my mind
plenty of hippies were genuinely decent and plenty of punks are huge pieces of shit. but broadly i think these are trends that can be drawn.
not important to this post though because mr rogers certainly wasn't pretending to be mean at a single point of his public persona (i mean maybe in an episode where someone says "that made me feel bad" and then he apologized or something, but you get it) and therefore isn't punk. cannot fathom a world where i believe he was
some punks were and are assholes. not all of them, but sometimes it is about breaking shit and beating people up and it's not deeper.
IDK, Mr Rogers flipped the bird on national TV and willingly shared his pool with a black friend when most of the country refused to do so. Sounds pretty punk to me.
Only in the sense that it's funny to think of Mr Rogers as a punk.
My point is that he'd probably have disagreed with "Conservatism is punk" chuds on the overwhelming majority of their ideology. Mr Rogers knew we could be better than that.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
anything is punk, especially things i like. it's double punk if my parents didn't like it
i think this is part of a broader trend of people feeling to need to justify everything they enjoy
I see this all the time with sexual preferences. It can’t just be “I like big boobs” or even “flat chested girls aren’t sexy,” no, it’s got to be “Western culture was built around the ideal of the large breasted woman and any deviation from that will cause the downfall of civilization and rational thought.”
When you're hating on flat chested girls like that you're a misogynist pig and deserve to be kicked in the face until you bleed. Same for when you shame any other girl for her body type. This must be repeated until you understand that "i'm not into (body type)" isn't the same as "people with (body type) aren't sexy". I don't get why it's so hard not to be a piece of shit about other peoples' looks.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing that phrasing a sexual preference as “anyone who doesn’t fit my preference is not sexy in an absolute sense” is okay. And that goes for any gender or sexuality. I’m just observing that a lot of people these days go beyond that to “My preference is a cornerstone of civilization/logic/biology.”
ah, ok. yeah, there's a point to that, reactionaries in particular love to bring out their biotruths to make a point.
These chats are fun to jump in, but only because the people who listen to Sex Pistols and Queens of the Stone Age show up to shit on Folk Punk. My bad music is just better than your bad music.
But yeah, Mr. Rogers isn't particularly punk. Not to say he's a bad person, but that you can be a good person that fights for good things and not be "punk".
I remember being at a festival somewhere at some time. It was a very broad-tent festival.
There were two main stages so acts could alternate - you'd have one stage where an act was playing while the other stage was being prepped by crew so the next act could jump on stage pretty much directly after the previous act, rather than having one main stage that has a lot of downtime between each act.
Björk was on one stage at the time. Love her stuff, really great and she was putting on a good show. But there was a big crowd who were there waiting to see Rage Against The Machine so they weren't interested in Björk which is fine, whatever, not all music caters to every taste and especially not her stuff.
What really left me disgusted though was the Rage crowd booing Björk, not for singing Declare Independence while raising a Tibetan flag (lol), but because they didn't like her music. Lots of people where flipping her off and shit too.
I was just like, man... y'all aren't nearly as countercultural as you think you are. I could play half of that crowd some early stuff in Björk's musical career that they'd probably find tolerable or agreeable, if not particularly likeable, because she started in punk and alternative music - which is pretty obvious if you look closely because she continued to draw on her punk and alternative influences as a solo artist. But also imagine being a big fan of countercultural music and being so openly hostile to music that pushes the boundaries.
"This music is very different and it's not like what I hear on the radio. I don't like it because it's unusual and uncomfortable so I'm going to heckle this artist. I'm countercultural as heck, bro!!"
Folk is Good. Punk is Good.
The two genres should generally not be mixed for the same reason 17th century Dramma per Musica and Dubstep should not be mixed.
QotSA falls into the Tool category for me: love the music, hate the fans lol
folk punk is fun, my friend's in a folk punk band and i got to see them do their thing and it was nice. no real experience with the genre outside that i'm afraid
okay but hear me out like mr rogers can be punk as a treat and ill fite you over this
It is punk to be a Presbyterian minister. I am speaking of course of Kim Hyong Jik, father of Kim Il Sung.
Punk is just a fashion movement with some weird-ass music that was attached as a hook.
Punk gatekeepers are extremely annoying. Oh no the kid is wearing a Misfits shirt but never listened to the Cough Cool single.
Leave the kid alone. They're even more annoying than the black metal dudes who are like "it's not real black metal unless it was recorded on a wax cylinder from 1897" because at least those guys are rarer
sure, gatekeepers are annoying. but i am going to gatekeep this much: if you say mr rogers is punk i don't wanna hear your opinion on what punk is
We need a word for the emotion of "I am simultaneously surprised and unsurprised this thing exists."
Imma punk getekeep this right now. Wearing Misfits merch sets off a poser alarm pretty quick and most punks that are punks and not bearded pbr guys that like Hot Water Music don't give a fuck about the Misfits aside from being a fun novelty act. Most punks haven't heard the cough/cool single cause it kinda sucks. If the kid is a literal kid, then whatever, but it's usually a 40 year old dude who listened to nofx in the 90s and thinking they're hot shit and Fishbone or whatever is more punk than this stupid noise when going to their first diy show in 25 years. Generally speaking if it's someone younger they'll be told of other all ages shows and get absolutely hooked up with merch and if of a reasonable age invited to parties. That's how it's supposed to go, you awkwardly go to a bigger punk band's show at a smaller venue and get your first taste as a early to mid teen and gradually go to more and more underground shows and by the time you're 17 or so you're hanging out with local punks who will get beer for you and get shown a blitz of super cool bands and get invited to cool basement shows or diy squat venues and eventually you're a punk and don't need to do stupid navel gazing about what is or isn't punk.
what if my misfits shirt is really thin and makes my tits look good
I'd recommend looking into the majority of diy punk t-shirts which are also gwnreallt pretty thin material cause it's cheap. The punk cut of removing sleeved down to almost the waist and cutting shirts tight at the same time can't do anything but mama your tits look better. Its a tit fit
Oh I meant literal 14 year old kids. People that hassle kids always get me heated. Especially when it's some obscure shit. Gamers do it all the time. "You're not a real gamer unless you had an atari." That kinda shit.
Punks generally won't do that to actual 14 year Olds cause they were that kid at 14. If they keep going to shows it's pretty much a community standard to make thar kid feel welcome as fuck because it's a pretty intimidating group and introduce people and let em know when other all ages stuff is happening. First off, all punk mockery us done thoroughly behind the back and also, no one is here to mock a child
That's the way it should be. I remember my first shows at houses and youth halls. Good times. Having one of the older dudes compliment a patch or pin made me all fuzzy feeling.
Damn right. I skipped like 4 months or so of high school to go on tour and saw most of North America prior to turning 19. And like, not the pretty parts. It was a Kerouac/motorcycle Diaries experience and I recommend it to everyone. Aside from getting into speed at 17
In doing so while skipping school instead of quitting my job, yes.
It's okay but is pribay there weakest material. She is the beat. Misfits song
Nope, just waking up. Cough/Cool is like...okay but probably their weakest material, at least Danzig Era. And the best Misfits song is She. Although Bloodfeast is a strong contender
i have no clue why there are so many comments, i thought everyone would see this go "haha, that's wild. obviously this person is dumb," like the dunk tank is designed for, and instead there's all this
