Resist the Western impulse to insert yourself into spaces not meant for you challenge impossible
I dunno. I'm not really in favor of the idea of disallowing people from a whole city because of their religion. Like anyone would say that only allowing Catholics in Rome would be religious discrimination. Or like the current practice of trying to push Arab Muslims out of Jerusalem.
Edit: I would understand not allowing non-Muslims to approach the Kaaba. Like a specific site of extreme religious significance that doesn't have a role in people's day to day lives beyond religious purposes is fine to restrict access to. But what if, for instance, someone is born in Mecca, grows up, has friends and a job and a home, and becomes an atheist. Is it really just for them to have to pretend to have faith or be expelled?
To clarify (not that you’re implying I do) I don’t endorse the policy or Saudi Arabia, but it’s very cringe for the reporter to sneak in and try to be “the first Israeli Jew in Mecca” this does nothing to stop bigotry or intolerance, and is just gross imo
although if Mecca was open clearly dipshits like this would try to sneak in and see the Kaaba so he’s definitely hurting any arguments to open up
Yeah, I'll give it an "everyone sucks here" for being pretty nakedly sensational, "daring" content shit disguised as journalism, but I do not accept the argument that more non-muslims trying to see the Kaaba as a good reason to close off Mecca. It's a little building that's very, very important to people, but God won't actually punish everyone if the wrong person looks at it before being escorted away.
^ I haven’t heard enough leftist opinions on Mecca being closed off specifically although their are many on Saudi Arabia, would be a great video essay topic
Because to talk about Mekka you should know about islamic jurisprudence, for which you need to be able to read academic arguments in arabic, and if you can do that you probably have other videos about islam to make that are more important. Why should there be a leftist analysis on islamic rules for who can go enter a holy area? Do you know what a haram is at least?
I just thought it would be interesting, not asking anyone to take on undue labor or anything like that, and cursorily yes, but clearly not enough
And I meant leftist more in the way that I’m already somewhat on the same page as the person and trust their judgment, I’m sure there are extremely reactionary Islamic law scholars as well as more progressive ones like most religions, although I could be wrong.
Did not mean to be disrespectful, just wanted to know more about it, sorry if it came across that way. I did some more research, and, think I understand the it a bit better
But that's not something for people who are not muslim to decide?
Mekka is a haram, a holy space where violence is forbidden, what that means and if non-muslims should be allowed there, is really not for outsiders to decide, but for islamic jurispudence and the 'umma as a whole.
Like why do you need to visit some religions most holy space, that is explicitly barred to oustsiders.
I can guarantee you that there most likely is some islamic ruling(and probably more than one) on your extremly specific scenario, but neither of us speak arabic, so we will not know.
And the fact that we can't even read what other people have said about the topic and what the current situation is, really should tell us to just keep out.
While Muslims of any nationality and background can enter Mecca
*as long as your country hasn't annoyed the saudi ruling class recently
I think this is about islamic jurispudence not saudi law. Which does make a difference.
The saudi government have refused to issue the special Hajj visas to Muslims from countries they don't like in the past
which is what i'm talking about
Yes, but this case is about islamic law, which the saudis also ignore when they like. It is not about a law of the saudi goverment.
I am sorry if I came across rude, but there area lot of islamophobic brainworms in this threat and i may have reacted far to negatively.
That’s your takeaway from this? You see an example of anti-Muslim bigotry and Western/Israeli settler-colonial chauvinism and your only comment is “actually Muslims are just as bad”?
Holy Sites are different than entire modern cities, it’s a pilgrimage location to a holy site. It’s not meant for you if you aren’t Muslim, it’s not a tourist gawking site. Respect the local customs and rules when you visit somewhere, even if you think they are silly - or continue the centuries long tradition of Western arrogance and trampling wherever you wish.
I don’t see it as much different than Hawaiians having some islands they forbid non-Hawaiians from visiting, or Mormons keeping non-Mormons out of their massive network of hundreds of temples
This is one of the only comments in this thread that seems to actually get it.
Like what the fuck is wrong with people? Would you all react this way if some native americans said "no this is our holy sacred land and only the people of our tribes are allowed to enter it" would you advocate for opening up of their sacred land? Fuck no. You'd accept that and not interfere with something sacred to them, their ancestors and their spirits or whatever the fuck explanation they gave you for it.
There are very clearly some islamophobic brainworms that some of the people here need to work the fuck out.
White Western left trampling on sacred Native American grounds: these are so stupid you fucking idiots
What's your reasoning for that? Even Engels was more of the opinion that spirituality would fade as communism was reached, not that it was bad.
So why are you thinking that then? Try to self reflect.
:100-com: People have insane takes about Mekka here. I expected better.
well mormons shouldn't have any temples so that's not a great comparison
:lmayo: :brainworms: colonialism is incurable in the mayos.
Vote for mayocide in 2022
After reading about the Haitian revolution last Night I really got the urge to go there. But as an Anglo American. Maybe not?
If it's an explicitly public place and you're visiting to learn about the culture and history and stuff (and not, like, to do sex trafficking or anything like that) then you're good.
My concern was mostly very recent American intervention. But true.
In my fairly limited travel experience to places america fucked over like Chile the locals appreciated the tourism money and if you disagreed with usa foreign policy it got you some brownie points on top. Most people know citizens are not the government especially in my case a student who said shit like "Chile deserves to control its own destiny" which is vague enough to appeal to most people while still being true to my sentiments.
I'm the same way. I too was going to Chile and looked into the history and was like, god damn it!! But I had ppl there to help me and show me around.
I really enjoyed my time in Chile and a big part was the locals being very chill. When we hit Patagonia you could tell the locals were used to tourists from around the world and were happy to get our money. I still smoked back then so it was a universal ice breaker to offer a cig if someone approached while smoking doing the universal hand sign for "can I bum a smoke"
I think not being a stingy bastard helps. Not expecting VIP treatment helps. Keep the "guest in another person's house" mentality and people appreciate it.
That's my move. I just love different culture. Universal things like cigs are a great ice breaker. Just don't want to be in a place I'm not wanted. Thank you.
