They're not organizing. They're being smug and condescending on the internet, which is cool and good compared to expressing other feelings on the internet.
We must organize or die. They can be smug and condescending and in that way feel kinship with smug New York columnists.
like the whole article is explicitly aimed at columnist twitter users, and people here said "oh my god does she mean me??? is she trying to tell me that my problems aren't real and i'm not valid??" so who is really identifying with the New York columnist here
who who is really identifying with the New York columnist here
You don't have to identify with them to go this far out of your way to defend their smarmy privileged position and selectively dig out a tiny part of it and polish it so it looks like "organize or die!" while doing kind of the opposite of that in the comments by being divisively hostile and condescending to the rest of us.
Apparently people need to organize 100% of the time or die, except you, where you have the very important task of being so self-important and condescending to the rest of us that you are either unintentionally terrible at rallying people together or you're deliberately doing... something. Whatever it is, it isn't good but it has the same energy as the New York columnist.
Maybe you should be pen pals with the columnist. In that way, you two can look down on the rest of us little people and wonder why your superior intellects and sigma grindsets don't get the respect you think they deserve here.
like how exactly am i supposed to be convinced to take you seriously
How exactly am I supposed to take you seriously when you're being this condescending and hostile to pretty much everyone in this thread, which is not unlike the columnist? Just how well is organizing going to go if the organizer is going to act like you?
exactly, i’m smarter than you, better than you, cooler than you, and fuck more than you. so are you gonna do something about it or are you just gonna agree with me.
It shows an indifference to the victimhood of people battered into helplessness by an inhuman system. And it’s simmering with contempt for people whom you consider weak.
So you said this in response to that:
not joining your suicide cult, sorry
If you hold the people here in that much contempt, under pretenses of "organizing" them, you're highly overvaluing your competence as an organizer. :downbear:
i don’t have contempt for weakness, i have contempt for strength that insists on its own weakness
:jordan-eboy-peterson: Quote potential.
For all your "organize or die" bloviating, tough talk, and self congratulatory statements in this thread alone, and because of how divisive and ruinous that all tends to be for actual organizing efforts, at this point I doubt you could successfully organize my school's fundraising bake sale.
None of us are children anymore. You can and should organize for better working conditions, but you can also turn off your email notifications. You can choose to prioritize the good life over a promotion or pleasing your boss. You can live with the loss of status and resources that this probably will entail. You can leave your job and take on the risks of finding work that does not corrode your self-respect. You can bring new life into the world knowing they will face intolerable danger and suffering, and take a type of comfort in the fact that on an individual level, this has always been the case. You can raise children in a too-small space and with too much debt.
lmao ok
great article, truly amazing. you definitely understood the author's message, which is definitely a call for organization.
/uj
The message is literally that capitalism has nothing to do with mental health, and everyone should just sit down and accept misery as a normal part of daily life. Did we even read the same article?
Holy shit, go fuck yourself. Just issuing "organize" as in imperative is a fucking joke of leftist pretense. It makes all of the "read theory" dweebs look reasonable because there is at least some way to viably determine what the theory is oneself. Just saying "organize" without giving the slightest detail on what to do is 100% masturbation.
Do you really organize yourself? You don't come across as though you do given how vague you are about it. If you really do, my suggestion is that you log off forever since you're surely doing some good out there and none in here.
I'm not against reading theory either, but saying "read theory!" instead of teaching people about theory or even giving a goddam recommendation list is not helpful.
I mean broad spectrum organize or die is operating motto for lots of leftists throughout history, it’s not personal attack on exact singular hexbears, be they disabled or unable to organize. It’s not “either you organize or you are piece of shit”, it’s more like “we are fucked if we don’t”.
this is pretty much what i meant to convey. the seriousness of the slogan is commensurate with the seriousness of our situation. i acknowledge it's not, in itself, useful advice, but also i don't think this trash person is interested in having a discussion anyway.
Ah, good I understood correctly then. I meant petty insults were on both sides :trump-anguish: , so I’ve hoped it was miscommunication. Anyway, you seem to be getting some shit, so :meow-hug:
Neither of your comments have addressed my actual point. Lots of other people in this thread have talked about disability and such, I have not. I recommend giving up since apparently I am incapable of adequately explaining what I thought was a very simple concept.
I wish you the best of luck with figuring out those owl-drawing tutorials.
Does our self-proclaimed smart person have no ability to read anything into my comment other than that? Are you too busy being put off to follow the argument?
If that's the case, maybe you shouldn't be condescending so aggressively to people on the basis that they are supposedly doing exactly that, i.e. failing to comprehend the article's argument because they found elements of the message so off-putting.
I don't want a reaction from you. I want you to either change your tune or shut the fuck up, and I know virtually no one on this website is capable of changing their mind on things.
i’m smarter than you, better than you, cooler than you, and fuck more than you. so are you gonna do something about it or are you just gonna agree with me.
Edit: And now you're jumping at shadows just like Ulysses was. Pure hypocrisy.
Eh, more likely, considering how quickly they replied in this thread when I was messaging you that you may want to consider better named harassment alts. Or no harassment alts.
In the very best case scenario, your not-you apparent fan/supporter isn't doing your position(s) any favors by screaming cryptofascist rage at me about how the weak will be crushed by the strong. :frothingfash:
If that really is the case, and at the moment I still have my doubts, maybe that "organize or die" message, loaded with insults and hostility toward many fellow Hexbear posters, needs some refinement and improvement if it put off so many people and got an edgelord to make a fresh alt account just to stan for you (even named after the "organize" thing you said) and vomit hatred at me.
if you are able to educate, agitate, organize working class organs or even the beginings of a party today, then do that but don't shit on other people who are not ready because honestly the vast majority of the working class, whether disabled or clinically depressed or not is simply not there yet either.
just screaming "organize" at them won't work. it might work for some people who are in a similar headspace as you but being hyper online is hardly the only way to isolate yourself from real people, you might be a in a party organizing and still have zero ability to connect with other workers on a real level, so think about why that might be
also, i didn't read the article, but self care is good, actually. you can't maintain any level of discipline without it. breaking down your ability to do self-care is one of the first things you do when you want to break a human and its something that capitalism does naturally through alienation and overwork and inducing disorders by demanding ways of thinking and living that are not good for us in order to have pliable workers and inducing massive amounts of stress by forcing us to either pretend or otherwise convince ourselves that we can make a broken system work.
revolution doesn't only take disciplined cadres, it also requires conditions where the working class will be ready for the necessary unrest, conflict, violence and discipline. the conditions for revolution will come when the conditions are so bad that the working class in the imperial core can't be lied to anymore and cannot take it anymore and has given up on the defanged unions and is ready for street fights and illegal mass strikes and is aware and ready to fight the counter reaction.
that does take disiplined cadres that will assist and guide in that process and but that sort of cadre work is not for everyone. under those kinds of conditions the little sects that we call "parties" today will either show themselves relevant or not and we'll just have to see if your favorite sect or mine will have any relevance or not or whether its someone else or maybe even the fascists that will win. the profit rate of the imperial core nations keeps dropping and the climate crisis keeps deepening, so we will see those conditions happen in our lifetime
not so much on the self-care is shit part. i think anyone who has been involved in any kind of revolutionary organization has figured out that self-care is an important element of it if you expect to have any longevity. self-care and solidarity (or mutual aid if you wish to use that terminology) strenghten each other. anyway based on the other comments here it seems you have changed your tone so i won't harp on that but if you have had experience with people who have a deep "learned helplessness" due to decades of poverty and the system failing them and have tried to help them you will know that the rhetoric you were using is both ineffective and heartless but i'll stop at that.
i mean self care in the sense used in the article, and in the many liberal discourses it criticizes; that is, ascribing a deep political significance to the individual pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain. i'm not advocating for a bootstraps mentality, and i'm not denying the real fact of our collective and individual disempowerment, but if we wish to pull our fellow workers up out of the muck, we need to begin from a place that assumes some degree of agency.
yeah, that particular definition is shit too imo. that said, when it comes to these types of things the amount of agency varies extensively, depending on the conditions you are facing. when i say self care i mean doing what is necessary to secure the bottom rungs of the maslow hierarchy more or less. if you are not able to get food, clothes, shelter, meds, sleep etc your agency even over your own mental state become severely reduced and because most people attempt to acquire those things through selling labor or getting SSI/SSDI checks that may not pay enough for that to happen. capitalism literally robs many people of most of their agency and its a downward spiral from there on and can lead to maladaptive behaviors like drug abuse etc.
liberal outlets that promote hedonism as self care only make this worse. solidarity and mutual aid can help us break through some of that but mostly we are left to fend for ourselves, which is why i am not against a better definition of self care that can be more useful if still very limited in its ability to meaningfully increase agency for many people. much of psychiatry and self-help coaching is similar to be honest, it only works for a small subset of people and is much more likely to work if socioeconomic factors have been guaranteed to begin with, which is not a safe assumption in our system of capitalism
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They're not organizing. They're being smug and condescending on the internet, which is cool and good compared to expressing other feelings on the internet.
We must organize or die. They can be smug and condescending and in that way feel kinship with smug New York columnists.
They've already expressed a sense of kinship with the New York columnist so we're just the little people here, unlike :galaxy-brain: there.
like the whole article is explicitly aimed at columnist twitter users, and people here said "oh my god does she mean me??? is she trying to tell me that my problems aren't real and i'm not valid??" so who is really identifying with the New York columnist here
You don't have to identify with them to go this far out of your way to defend their smarmy privileged position and selectively dig out a tiny part of it and polish it so it looks like "organize or die!" while doing kind of the opposite of that in the comments by being divisively hostile and condescending to the rest of us.
Apparently people need to organize 100% of the time or die, except you, where you have the very important task of being so self-important and condescending to the rest of us that you are either unintentionally terrible at rallying people together or you're deliberately doing... something. Whatever it is, it isn't good but it has the same energy as the New York columnist.
Maybe you should be pen pals with the columnist. In that way, you two can look down on the rest of us little people and wonder why your superior intellects and sigma grindsets don't get the respect you think they deserve here.
i'm sorry
:doubt:
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How exactly am I supposed to take you seriously when you're being this condescending and hostile to pretty much everyone in this thread, which is not unlike the columnist? Just how well is organizing going to go if the organizer is going to act like you?
:debate-me-debate-me:
:expert-shapiro:
:PIGPOOPBALLS:
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Someone said this:
So you said this in response to that:
If you hold the people here in that much contempt, under pretenses of "organizing" them, you're highly overvaluing your competence as an organizer. :downbear:
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:jordan-eboy-peterson: Quote potential.
For all your "organize or die" bloviating, tough talk, and self congratulatory statements in this thread alone, and because of how divisive and ruinous that all tends to be for actual organizing efforts, at this point I doubt you could successfully organize my school's fundraising bake sale.
You're being a huge asshole to random people for no reason and then acting smug about it. I'm sure you're great at organizing.
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Reading past the headline is exactly what caused my revulsion
okay well try doing it again with your brain turned on this time
edit: this was mean and i'm sorry for that
lmao ok
great article, truly amazing. you definitely understood the author's message, which is definitely a call for organization.
/uj
The message is literally that capitalism has nothing to do with mental health, and everyone should just sit down and accept misery as a normal part of daily life. Did we even read the same article?
The important thing is feeling superior to the rest of us, and in that way having something in common with the columnist.
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I'm not playing this game with you.
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there's really no reason to be a monstrous asshole like this to everyone here. you should chill the fuck out.
perhaps
You got some weird responses but
Holy shit, go fuck yourself. Just issuing "organize" as in imperative is a fucking joke of leftist pretense. It makes all of the "read theory" dweebs look reasonable because there is at least some way to viably determine what the theory is oneself. Just saying "organize" without giving the slightest detail on what to do is 100% masturbation.
Do you really organize yourself? You don't come across as though you do given how vague you are about it. If you really do, my suggestion is that you log off forever since you're surely doing some good out there and none in here.
Would you agree with following statement: if working class doesn’t organize, it’s barbarism time?
I'm not against reading theory either, but saying "read theory!" instead of teaching people about theory or even giving a goddam recommendation list is not helpful.
I mean broad spectrum organize or die is operating motto for lots of leftists throughout history, it’s not personal attack on exact singular hexbears, be they disabled or unable to organize. It’s not “either you organize or you are piece of shit”, it’s more like “we are fucked if we don’t”.
this is pretty much what i meant to convey. the seriousness of the slogan is commensurate with the seriousness of our situation. i acknowledge it's not, in itself, useful advice, but also i don't think this trash person is interested in having a discussion anyway.
Ah, good I understood correctly then. I meant petty insults were on both sides :trump-anguish: , so I’ve hoped it was miscommunication. Anyway, you seem to be getting some shit, so :meow-hug:
Neither of your comments have addressed my actual point. Lots of other people in this thread have talked about disability and such, I have not. I recommend giving up since apparently I am incapable of adequately explaining what I thought was a very simple concept.
I wish you the best of luck with figuring out those owl-drawing tutorials.
Sorry :meow-hug:
Why are you apologizing?
sorry, who are you? i'm not interested in arguing with you
What kind of response is that? Are you having a stroke?
i think you are saying rude things to get a reaction
Does our self-proclaimed smart person have no ability to read anything into my comment other than that? Are you too busy being put off to follow the argument?
If that's the case, maybe you shouldn't be condescending so aggressively to people on the basis that they are supposedly doing exactly that, i.e. failing to comprehend the article's argument because they found elements of the message so off-putting.
I don't want a reaction from you. I want you to either change your tune or shut the fuck up, and I know virtually no one on this website is capable of changing their mind on things.
:PIGPOOPBALLS:
Edit: And now you're jumping at shadows just like Ulysses was. Pure hypocrisy.
Clean your room, bucko. :jordan-eboy-peterson:
Oh yeah, the @OrganizeOrganize "not an alt" didn't have a very convincing name.
who?
looks like some wrecker that identified your state of agitation and refusal to disengage and is now needling you to induce rage and paranoia
Eh, more likely, considering how quickly they replied in this thread when I was messaging you that you may want to consider better named harassment alts. Or no harassment alts.
In the very best case scenario, your not-you apparent fan/supporter isn't doing your position(s) any favors by screaming cryptofascist rage at me about how the weak will be crushed by the strong. :frothingfash:
yeah, i agree, which is why i said they're a wrecker.
If that really is the case, and at the moment I still have my doubts, maybe that "organize or die" message, loaded with insults and hostility toward many fellow Hexbear posters, needs some refinement and improvement if it put off so many people and got an edgelord to make a fresh alt account just to stan for you (even named after the "organize" thing you said) and vomit hatred at me.
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Made less than an hour ago, instantly replied to your not-main, sure sure. :sus-soviet:
Continue, but I got what I was waiting for. So much for that organizational skill! :mao-wave:
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Great minds think alike.
You understand that you only saw that message because you had multiple tabs open and mixed up which one you were replying to, right?
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if you are able to educate, agitate, organize working class organs or even the beginings of a party today, then do that but don't shit on other people who are not ready because honestly the vast majority of the working class, whether disabled or clinically depressed or not is simply not there yet either.
just screaming "organize" at them won't work. it might work for some people who are in a similar headspace as you but being hyper online is hardly the only way to isolate yourself from real people, you might be a in a party organizing and still have zero ability to connect with other workers on a real level, so think about why that might be
also, i didn't read the article, but self care is good, actually. you can't maintain any level of discipline without it. breaking down your ability to do self-care is one of the first things you do when you want to break a human and its something that capitalism does naturally through alienation and overwork and inducing disorders by demanding ways of thinking and living that are not good for us in order to have pliable workers and inducing massive amounts of stress by forcing us to either pretend or otherwise convince ourselves that we can make a broken system work.
revolution doesn't only take disciplined cadres, it also requires conditions where the working class will be ready for the necessary unrest, conflict, violence and discipline. the conditions for revolution will come when the conditions are so bad that the working class in the imperial core can't be lied to anymore and cannot take it anymore and has given up on the defanged unions and is ready for street fights and illegal mass strikes and is aware and ready to fight the counter reaction.
that does take disiplined cadres that will assist and guide in that process and but that sort of cadre work is not for everyone. under those kinds of conditions the little sects that we call "parties" today will either show themselves relevant or not and we'll just have to see if your favorite sect or mine will have any relevance or not or whether its someone else or maybe even the fascists that will win. the profit rate of the imperial core nations keeps dropping and the climate crisis keeps deepening, so we will see those conditions happen in our lifetime
i think we're broadly in agreement then
not so much on the self-care is shit part. i think anyone who has been involved in any kind of revolutionary organization has figured out that self-care is an important element of it if you expect to have any longevity. self-care and solidarity (or mutual aid if you wish to use that terminology) strenghten each other. anyway based on the other comments here it seems you have changed your tone so i won't harp on that but if you have had experience with people who have a deep "learned helplessness" due to decades of poverty and the system failing them and have tried to help them you will know that the rhetoric you were using is both ineffective and heartless but i'll stop at that.
i mean self care in the sense used in the article, and in the many liberal discourses it criticizes; that is, ascribing a deep political significance to the individual pursuit of pleasure and avoidance of pain. i'm not advocating for a bootstraps mentality, and i'm not denying the real fact of our collective and individual disempowerment, but if we wish to pull our fellow workers up out of the muck, we need to begin from a place that assumes some degree of agency.
yeah, that particular definition is shit too imo. that said, when it comes to these types of things the amount of agency varies extensively, depending on the conditions you are facing. when i say self care i mean doing what is necessary to secure the bottom rungs of the maslow hierarchy more or less. if you are not able to get food, clothes, shelter, meds, sleep etc your agency even over your own mental state become severely reduced and because most people attempt to acquire those things through selling labor or getting SSI/SSDI checks that may not pay enough for that to happen. capitalism literally robs many people of most of their agency and its a downward spiral from there on and can lead to maladaptive behaviors like drug abuse etc.
liberal outlets that promote hedonism as self care only make this worse. solidarity and mutual aid can help us break through some of that but mostly we are left to fend for ourselves, which is why i am not against a better definition of self care that can be more useful if still very limited in its ability to meaningfully increase agency for many people. much of psychiatry and self-help coaching is similar to be honest, it only works for a small subset of people and is much more likely to work if socioeconomic factors have been guaranteed to begin with, which is not a safe assumption in our system of capitalism