There's almost no way to come up with a system that somehow excludes the majority of society from casting spells without appealing to some racist (muh elven blood, muh dragon grandmother) or classist (muh royal bloodline, muh selective school of magic) bullshit. I think magic being almost written in an exclusionary way is the root of the problem.
Magic is also almost written in an exclusively individualist way as well. Why isn't communal magic more of a thing? Imagine if the Harry Potter series ended with Harry and Voldemort each casting some communal spell against each other and since Harry isn't some freaky weirdo, his side has more wizards which means their communal spell is stronger by virtue of having more people behind him.
I could do one even better. What if Voldemort was able to obtain some magical MacGuffin that made him insurmountably powerful and as a final gambit, Harry tear apart the masquerade (or whatever it's called in the HP universe) that separates magic users from nonmagic users and on the knowledge of Voldemort's atrocities, humanity's collective contempt for Voldemort is so great that humanity unconsciously casts a communal spell that, powered by every single living human in existence, was able to simply will Voldemort from existence?
Magic being written in an exclusionary and individualist way has ideological baggage. It's not "what if I'm able to cast fireballs" but "what if I'm able to cast fireballs, but the filthy plebs aren't able to." This is why magic quickly devolves to some shitty power fantasy or is filled with racist and classist bullshit that does nothing but ideologically reproduces the status quo in capitalist hellworld. It should be no surprise the Harry Potter series was written by some fucking Blairite terf.
There’s almost no way to come up with a system that somehow excludes the majority of society from casting spells without appealing to some racist or classist bullshit
I find appealing the chi system similar to DBZ, minus the races/aliens stuff. I suppose it makes sense that elves would have a slightly higher propensity to do magic than humans, but that's an option I'm not about to talk about.
Of course, nothing particularly interesting would stop the world builder from deciding that some people are genetically more likely to do magic, in the same way that some people are just taller.
Drop from DBZ the concept that everybody is ripped and punches and that chi is mostly used for punching/defending punches, if you want.
There is a bit of a skill ceiling in using chi. IDK how you would explain that, depends on how much you want to gate keep it. After all, nothing really stops you all from becoming programmers and contributing to hexbear's rust backend, AFAIK.
Once you've gate-kept, have a second skill ceiling. Some people can shoot fireballs out of their hands, fly, etc., whatever. But some people can create advanced chi procedures and store them inside objects or people. For example, create a scroll that shoots fireball when read, or plant in a person's brain/soul the ability to use a fireball technique without the formal chi training it would normally require.
Decide how rare the scroll-makers are, if they are alive, etc..
I can’t agree. My favorite magic systems tend to be ones that are hard, fundamental rules of the universe they’re in, for two reasons. 1, if magic existed in the real world, with real, measurable, physical effects on the world, I would expect it to be examined like any science.
2, I like the idea that if you’re just good enough at studying, good enough at math and linguistics and history and you just read enough you can alter the fabric of reality. The concept that if you just understand the laws of physics well enough you get to break them is :chefs-kiss: to me.
But that’s all 100% personal preference, and I think my preference for those has to do with my being in academia most of my life.
Probably my favorite representation of magic is the show The Magicians. You want to be good at magic? Hope you enjoy grad school, better start learning Arabic and Ancient Greek.
Another magic system I absolutely love is Full Metal Alchemist, where the magic is explicitly a kind of science.
The Vampire Diaries and it’s spin-offs also do a method I like.
The worst kind of magic imo is like Harry Potter, where magic has hard set rules except when it doesn’t and it never explains those rules and no one seems to know why anything works the way it does, and there don’t seem to be any limits on the magic except that you can be “more powerful” (whatever that means)
Yeah I agree here. Although that might just be because I like scifi. I am fine with mysterious unknowable magic if and only if the protagonist isn't the one who can do it. Lord of the rings has no rules on magic, but frodo isn't the one doing any magic.
Yes! 100% agree. Or if the protagonist does have it, they’re basically the only one who does and just got it.
The more people that know how to do it, the better I need to know how it works. If hundreds or thousands of people are using magic every day and spent years studying how to do it, people will figure out how it works
Have you heard of the TTRPG series Mage, by White Wolf? I don't have much experience with the series but it sounds almost exactly like what you're describing. Mages kind of 'awaken' to the fact that reality is just whatever is agreed upon, and if you're aware of that fact, you can just change it.
Unfortunately I’m one of the insecure nerds they’re appealing to lol
I think this still falls into some of the same problems Sando's magic rules does. You're positing that there is a single correct framework through which to view "well written fantasy magic". But there's not. There's no hard rules in writing, much less in writing how magic operates in your fantasy setting. While what you're describing is personally more appealing to me, there's also a lot of interesting stuff you can write with a tighter, more constrained, 'scientific' approach to magic. The different approaches lend themselves to different stories and themes.
Well, that's kind of my point. You're talking about what's appealing to you, but your phrasing comes off as the only real way to do it. When you say
Magic that operates based on logical rules and scientific inquiry is literally not magic to me
you're basically applying a set of logical rules to writing that shouldn't be there. Since magic isn't real, whatever an author determines is magic is. It's the same kind of communication that leads to the thing happening with Sando's magic rules.
Well so one big hang-up for me is the blurring of science/technology and magic, both sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic and its converse. But I am just being a nerd there so let’s skip that.
This is such a huge thing though. So many people today don't want Magic to be Magic. They want a setting that is Magic-Punk. Magic as a technology, as a science, and as a resource.
What is the point of magic if not an exploration of a reality that is not our own? Why in the hell would mages be content to slave away under the shackles of capitalism? (speaking here of setting where mages are often just more efficient labors, in some settings replacing able-bodied people as the proletarian class entirely!) If these mages are so powerful and common they can constitute an entire working class, then at least be realistic an interesting; the cities would devolve into gang warfare and lawlessness almost immediately. the average worker has guns for hands!!
I tend to be into fae-wildy, Kind Of Other Dimensions But Incomprehensible To Us, Chaos Magick-y type stuff.
That's how I see it. Why even bother calling it "magic" instead of the Force or something if it's supposed to be easily measurable, quantifiable, and repeatable with predictable results in a laboratory environment?
Disclaimer: Yes, I know the Force was originally more "magical" but that ship sailed as soon as midi-chlorians and "balance in the Force" enlightened centrism became a thing in the franchise.
Disclaimer: Yes, I know the Force was originally more “magical” but that ship sailed as soon as midi-chlorians and “balance in the Force” enlightened centrism became a thing in the franchise.
There's some interesting exploration of the Force being more than just a dark/light thing in SWTOR. There are mentions of how other cultures see their Force users as servants of their gods, completely absent of any dark or light distinction. Also, the Knights of Zakuul see the Force as a reward for serving justice. There are some really interesting ideas that I wish the mainstream part of the franchise explored more.
As long as it doesn't wander into "I want dark side powers but don't judge me, maaaaaan" enlightened centrist territory, sure. Sounds fun. The Jedi and Sith have an ideological duopoly and that isn't cool.
It's more "The Jedi ideology won't stop you from being an asshole, and the Sith ideology can be liberatory." The entire Sith Inquisitor path is about an ex-slave rising to power, and you can lean heavily into the Sith path as a way of overcoming oppression (to the point you end up openly against the Sith Empire but the Sith base rank on power so it's not like they can stop you).
Meanwhile, a Jedi's over-focus on detachment from worldly desire ends up with them destroying everything they wanted, the lives of the people that love them, and the entire political project of the republic on that planet, leaving your Sith character to snark at how you're a better Jedi than they are.
GOOD post
Of the many many interesting things you brought up I want to shout out the Naruto hand signs, I love the magic system in Naruto and it’s explained in such fine detail exactly how everything works
I love that I can find conversations like this here. I'm writing up my thoughts now and I'm interested in having a discussion :quokka-smile:
I agree, the fetishization of magic systems has weird ideological undertones. More importantly, though, Sanderson's rules of magic are so often applied broadly to the whole genre, that all fantasy must follow his rules. If he (or other authors) want to use those rules, cool, go for it, but not following them is a frequent criticism of books in the genre that have a different philosophy.
And I love your point about how magic can be an end in itself.
As brando fan, he explicitly says that’s what he likes to write, not that it be all end all, or that he doesn’t like softer magic system in other people’s books. I feel his way is sort of extension of old sci-fi thingy (you change 1 thing in physical laws, and then write about humans existing in this world) into fantasy
I'm also a pretty big Brando fan. I'm not coming at him here, but the legions of people who take his personal set of rules and think they are universal truths of fantasy writing.
they're also all white dudes who use his writing to put down indigenous authors/any minority trying to break into the genre. as someone who's worked in a book store owned by one of these fucks
Reddit STEMlords love Brandon Sanderson style hard magic systems because they have no imagination and even magic has to make "logical" sense.
Give me magic that is weird and inexplicable and terrifying ty
You make a valid point anthropology wise. Can you think of a time where magic being fundamentally unknowable like you said was narratively satifying?
See, when I was thinking of a soft magic plot I honestly first hit on like slipstream scifi. Moeibious kinda stuff. Where I can't myself feel any magic about the world I can about the universe. Magic? Bullshit. Le Incal? A magic pyramid fought over by the technopriests with unknowable magic powers? Obviously plausable and emotionally relevant.
So there is a synthesis here. As star treck is that same science fantasy kidna setting.
There is obviously a link there but herbet went out of his way to keep some aspects of the story grounded. There was little effort in that reguard. It sounds more like what you are talking about than dune. He does have stuff like the azarch that veers out into pure metaphor.
You should check out prophet as well. It was an old gritty 90s comic that got rebooted into mythical science fantasy.
What else is on the list? Greg egan? Roger Zelazny?
Follow your heart once you read enough of the scifi you will roughly be able to guess the publication date based on the tech in it.
Especially since you said you are looking for works with a sense of the numenous. We got those from the 70s when authors tended to get acid and experience wonder directly. Now then of recent vemtage we have them were the authors can see into the future enough to recapture a sense of wonder. But in the middle it felt like they really didn't have any true imagination
There's this need to acquire the best magic and knowledge is hoarded. Even in franchises I love like Full Metal Alchemist, the magic system is kept behind several walls of secrecy and exclusivity.
I always hated that part of secrets in the world that are accessible to the people at large.
In Harry Potter for example, I hated the idea that magical people could help with so many real-world problems. They just choose to stay exclusive. Magic knowledge is kept from people they deem unworthy, even if you have magical ability.
I can accept secrecy and such in super hero type fiction sometimes like in Sailor Moon. Nobody else can use those powers and fight against the villains on the same level.
Dragon Ball Z had an interesting concept when they had Gohan teach Videl about using ki. This is knowledge that could help a lot of people but they keep that knowledge and the reality of their global threats to themselves. It baffles me that no human outside current canon discovered how to use ki in the years since Dragon Ball started. There were androids and stuff, but nobody would stumble onto that information ever? To seek to get to the level of at least Yamcha?
In Harry Potter for example, I hated the idea that magical people could help with so many real-world problems. They just choose to stay exclusive.
Harry Potter is the absolute worst about this, because seemingly there’s no real limit on magic and it’s abilities. There’s no pool of magic energy to deplete, it’s not a scarce resource in anyway, the only reason they don’t share is because they just don’t feel like it.
I think FMA handles it pretty well actually. A lot of the information is available as long as you’re willing to study complicated chemistry and physics to be able to do it, and most of the actual secrecy is specific to the military. Atomic theory is public, blueprints for how to build an atom bomb are secret.
