A single line in a national anthem is hardly reason to call the entire country fascist. I really don't see how they can be "authoritarian" when its citizens have one of the highest perceptions of its democracy of any country. Take a look at this study. This is a western study by a German polling firm. 73% of Chinese citizens consider their country a democracy. That's 20-30% higher than most Western countries, excluding Scandinavian ones. Everything in that poll affirms that China is one of the most democratic countries in the world. Certainly more than the US, where the president literally got 3 million less votes than his opponent and mass voter suppression is the norm.
Globally, China replacing the US is great for democracy, as well: the US's foreign policy consists mostly of coups and regime changes. When those don't work, you get an Iraq War. China, on the other hand, doesn't coup or overthrow multiple foreign governments every year.
There have been multiple threads and comments in this lemmy, as well as other communist subs that have gone in-depth into the first two, as they are most emphasised by the media, so I'll give the "brief" overview of their refutations.
The situation in Xinjiang is an issue of counter-terrorism. That is not to say that all Uyghurs are terrorists, rather that, due to Xinjiang's proximity to US-destabilised regions, there has been a higher chance of extremist ideology in the area, which has affected some Uyghurs. The evidence of this are reports (that surfaced before the camp allegations arose) of Uyghur militias being trained in Syria, and multiple attacks that include stabbings, car rammings, etc, with casualties in the hundreds. So the response of the government is to open camps, or vocational schools, to provide work training for those who may have been influenced by extremist thought. Note that this is not a blanket repression of Uyghurs or their culture. Evidence of this is abundant. It's just not reported on. Please note that this is not a blanket repression of Muslims either - China has other Muslim minorities, like the Hui, that are completely fine, and if i remember correctly, China have more mosques per capita than the US.
A sidenote that I also find interesting that is usually looked over: Xinjiang contains 20% of China's fossil fuel reserves, has the capacity to produce 10% of China's renewable energy, and serves as an essential gateway to the BRI, a project that has the potential to shift global trade and power dynamics further to Asia. I wonder why the US and the media is so interested in Xinjiang?
With regard to Hong Kong, those colonial apologists got off easy. What happened with Hong Kong was essentially an attempted colour revolution, funded by US money. You really cannot say that China is a proto-fascist state, by 1) trying to have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, which is technically Chinese territory, and already has such extradition treaties with the likes of the US and the UK, and 2) trying to, y'know, not have a successful separatist movement in a key financial hub, and 3) not actually being responsible for the deaths of anyone in Hong Kong, despite the riots going for over a year. With regard to the national security law, it literally is a law that prohibits sedition or rebellion, a law that exists everywhere else in the world. The max sentence for breaking this law is life imprisonment. As opposed to the benevolent US or Japan, where it is the death penalty. More can be said, so I defer to the other megathreads and source compilations.
The Great Firewall is actually pretty good, ngl. Ideally ofc, censorship shouldn't occur at all, but given China's main geopolitical and ideological rival has a virtual monopoly on information, I understand why it exists. It helps filter out the bullshit propaganda that we get fed here in the West, and helps develop Chinese internet services, like Weibo, to rival US ones, like Facebook. Additionally, you can bypass it pretty easily. Just get a VPN. Chinese citizens know this, and those who are bothered enough, mainly the younger generations, will get one. I have heard that the analogy that the crime of using a VPN to bypass the Firewall is like the crime of jaywalking - pretty much accepted.
This was an excellent read, thank you so much for putting this together. I've been looking for a good summary to show people of why what we're told about china is wrong.
I love this narrative, the US has been torturing Uyghur muslims from Afghanistan which is neighbouring Xinjiang (and muslims from many other countries) for ages now, but all of a sudden the US loves muslims, and is very concerned about their safety. Also Hong Kong was an obvious US funded color revolution, crawling with CIA assets, US senators advising protestors and had the sole goal of getting the US congress to vote for placing sanctions on Hong Kong. The new security law is an inevitable result of the trump administration overplaying it's hand.
A perspective from an american living in china, deals with a lot of the propaganda, and especially Hong Kong's security law:
That's a cop out. We live in the imperial core, in countries with the most propagandised people in the world, a news media that is completely beholden to western security apparatus, use your critical thinking skill to investigate why western narratives have turned incredibly anti china as the US empire collapses and western capital loses its ability to wage war and coup any country they want.
Right but the point is that "talking about China" from the perspective of the imperial core lends you facts given to you by empire. How can you "talk about China" when you've already been spoonfed a bunch of nonsense about HK, etc?
I had a really long response typed out, but this website glitched and scrolled up to the top and deleted my whole comment. Basically, I don't think that particular study is relevant to this. That study only shows that their Citizens feel like they have a choice.
Something like 86% of US police say that US Law Enforcement is racist. Does that mean it's not racist?
As to that comparison, it's so outrageous I'm not even sure what to say. How do cops saying cops are good refute the experience of Chinese citizens? If your claim is they are authoritarian fascists, it seems like the belief among Chinese citizens that they live in a fair democracy is extremely relevant.
But how? You haven't explained how besides a single line in a national anthem. Again, the people of China clearly disagree with you. Not the government - the everyday citizens. They think they live in a democracy. They think their government acts in the best interests of the people. They think the government has made their lives materially better. Do you know better than they do?
That study shows it in a number of ways. You should read through. Here's another that takes a long term view and shows not just high approval but growing approval.
A single line in a national anthem is hardly reason to call the entire country fascist. I really don't see how they can be "authoritarian" when its citizens have one of the highest perceptions of its democracy of any country. Take a look at this study. This is a western study by a German polling firm. 73% of Chinese citizens consider their country a democracy. That's 20-30% higher than most Western countries, excluding Scandinavian ones. Everything in that poll affirms that China is one of the most democratic countries in the world. Certainly more than the US, where the president literally got 3 million less votes than his opponent and mass voter suppression is the norm.
Globally, China replacing the US is great for democracy, as well: the US's foreign policy consists mostly of coups and regime changes. When those don't work, you get an Iraq War. China, on the other hand, doesn't coup or overthrow multiple foreign governments every year.
What about the Muslim reeducation-camps though? What about Hong Kong? What about the great-firewall?
There have been multiple threads and comments in this lemmy, as well as other communist subs that have gone in-depth into the first two, as they are most emphasised by the media, so I'll give the "brief" overview of their refutations.
The situation in Xinjiang is an issue of counter-terrorism. That is not to say that all Uyghurs are terrorists, rather that, due to Xinjiang's proximity to US-destabilised regions, there has been a higher chance of extremist ideology in the area, which has affected some Uyghurs. The evidence of this are reports (that surfaced before the camp allegations arose) of Uyghur militias being trained in Syria, and multiple attacks that include stabbings, car rammings, etc, with casualties in the hundreds. So the response of the government is to open camps, or vocational schools, to provide work training for those who may have been influenced by extremist thought. Note that this is not a blanket repression of Uyghurs or their culture. Evidence of this is abundant. It's just not reported on. Please note that this is not a blanket repression of Muslims either - China has other Muslim minorities, like the Hui, that are completely fine, and if i remember correctly, China have more mosques per capita than the US.
A sidenote that I also find interesting that is usually looked over: Xinjiang contains 20% of China's fossil fuel reserves, has the capacity to produce 10% of China's renewable energy, and serves as an essential gateway to the BRI, a project that has the potential to shift global trade and power dynamics further to Asia. I wonder why the US and the media is so interested in Xinjiang?
With regard to Hong Kong, those colonial apologists got off easy. What happened with Hong Kong was essentially an attempted colour revolution, funded by US money. You really cannot say that China is a proto-fascist state, by 1) trying to have an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, which is technically Chinese territory, and already has such extradition treaties with the likes of the US and the UK, and 2) trying to, y'know, not have a successful separatist movement in a key financial hub, and 3) not actually being responsible for the deaths of anyone in Hong Kong, despite the riots going for over a year. With regard to the national security law, it literally is a law that prohibits sedition or rebellion, a law that exists everywhere else in the world. The max sentence for breaking this law is life imprisonment. As opposed to the benevolent US or Japan, where it is the death penalty. More can be said, so I defer to the other megathreads and source compilations.
The Great Firewall is actually pretty good, ngl. Ideally ofc, censorship shouldn't occur at all, but given China's main geopolitical and ideological rival has a virtual monopoly on information, I understand why it exists. It helps filter out the bullshit propaganda that we get fed here in the West, and helps develop Chinese internet services, like Weibo, to rival US ones, like Facebook. Additionally, you can bypass it pretty easily. Just get a VPN. Chinese citizens know this, and those who are bothered enough, mainly the younger generations, will get one. I have heard that the analogy that the crime of using a VPN to bypass the Firewall is like the crime of jaywalking - pretty much accepted.
This was an excellent read, thank you so much for putting this together. I've been looking for a good summary to show people of why what we're told about china is wrong.
Yeah, it's really easy and nobody really cares if you use a VPN. I download shitloads of hentai on the regular.
Never thought I'd say that I miss the volcel police
I love this narrative, the US has been torturing Uyghur muslims from Afghanistan which is neighbouring Xinjiang (and muslims from many other countries) for ages now, but all of a sudden the US loves muslims, and is very concerned about their safety. Also Hong Kong was an obvious US funded color revolution, crawling with CIA assets, US senators advising protestors and had the sole goal of getting the US congress to vote for placing sanctions on Hong Kong. The new security law is an inevitable result of the trump administration overplaying it's hand.
A perspective from an american living in china, deals with a lot of the propaganda, and especially Hong Kong's security law:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgxPKJF7EwM
I'm not here to try to Defend America. We're talking about China.
That's a cop out. We live in the imperial core, in countries with the most propagandised people in the world, a news media that is completely beholden to western security apparatus, use your critical thinking skill to investigate why western narratives have turned incredibly anti china as the US empire collapses and western capital loses its ability to wage war and coup any country they want.
Right but the point is that "talking about China" from the perspective of the imperial core lends you facts given to you by empire. How can you "talk about China" when you've already been spoonfed a bunch of nonsense about HK, etc?
Well hold on, are you dodging everything I just said? I'd be happy to discuss those three topics but you really need to address that survey.
I had a really long response typed out, but this website glitched and scrolled up to the top and deleted my whole comment. Basically, I don't think that particular study is relevant to this. That study only shows that their Citizens feel like they have a choice.
Something like 86% of US police say that US Law Enforcement is racist. Does that mean it's not racist?
I just had the same glitch. Very frustrating.
As to that comparison, it's so outrageous I'm not even sure what to say. How do cops saying cops are good refute the experience of Chinese citizens? If your claim is they are authoritarian fascists, it seems like the belief among Chinese citizens that they live in a fair democracy is extremely relevant.
I'm saying they are Proto-Fascist. Meaning the way has been paved for Fascism.
Another example of Proto-Fascism I would use is Donald Trump's Presidency.
But how? You haven't explained how besides a single line in a national anthem. Again, the people of China clearly disagree with you. Not the government - the everyday citizens. They think they live in a democracy. They think their government acts in the best interests of the people. They think the government has made their lives materially better. Do you know better than they do?
I just got that bug again. This is killing me.
Do you have a different study that shows how many Chinese think their government acts in the best interests of the people?
That study shows it in a number of ways. You should read through. Here's another that takes a long term view and shows not just high approval but growing approval.
Edit: Here's the actual study itself, rather than an article about it.
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You can call them bad policies, and open up that discussion, but being arguably bad communists doesn't make them fascist.