It's been a while since I read Dune, but I remember enjoying the story, but it having A LOT of moments about women that had me going :fidel-wut: I don't participate in any Dune-related fandoms or anything, so I'm not sure if that's a common criticism or not.
Herbert for sure has some Opinions About Women.
He wrote another book which was about a supervirus bioweapon that only kills women, and the first symptom is getting uncontrollably horny. One of the scientists who is working on a cure informs her research team that she is going to die by revealing that she had masturbated that morning
If a feminist fiction author of Herbert's time had written that kind of a story as satire they'd probably be in english literary canon for it. It's so pig-headed and backwards that it wraps back around to being funny.
I read something about the further Dune books that made me decide I wasn't going to have a good time with them, so I stopped at the first book. I don't remember the book that clearly since it's been too long, but I remember there being something about the Bene Gesserit fearing something about the male side of their visions and not being able to go there because they're women, and I was like, "Fuck you Herbert, I ain't scared!" It's very gender essentialist when you think about it.
It’s very gender essentialist when you think about it.
This point in particular is complex. On the one hand yes, it is, but on the other hand the Bene Gesserit are canonically wrong; disproven by the existence of Leto II who is actually able to access that, and it's not because he's special (I mean he is, but it's besides the point) and that Paul / the Bene Gesserit are just too scared to press on that essentialist understanding.
That being said, once you get later than that even, once Herbert starts getting much older, you start seeing themes around sexual control and that I think gets much more into the yikes territory
Getting to God Emperor of Dune I think is critical to having an appreciation for the series, because the other books are setting up things to be subverted in God Emperor.
Paul is not a white savior, he is an incredibly flawed messiah figure; and one of the biggest themes of the series is to beware messiah figures.
That's fair, but I don't think I'm going to return to the series anyway. I liked Dune, but I didn't love it enough to continue the series or return to the book in the ~15 years since I read it.
Though I may come across as one, I'm not an evangelist for the series and don't really recommend it to people because like I said the payoff is so buried in the books.
Lol, this applies to like every sci-fi writer. I read through all of Larry Niven's Ringworld books and boy is there a lot of weird sex stuff, especially the later books when he ran out of new ideas for the ringworld.
Dune is also super orientalist, i.e., the fremen can’t get anything done until Paul the colonizer helps them. And their belief system has basically been molded by the bene gesserit, meaning that the dark hordes/unwashed masses have no agency and are just playthings of ruling elites, a very lib take on things.
Disagree. This is a very superficial take. Herbert does not just superficially take Middle Eastern aesthetics because he thinks they look cool. He engages meaningfully with Islam and the world around it as he construct his future.
Here's a good article that addresses this idea: https://www.tor.com/2021/10/18/the-muslimness-of-dune-a-close-reading-of-appendix-ii-the-religion-of-dune/
Also, it's not just the fremen who are molded by the Bene Gesserit: the entire galaxy has been shaped by their religious manipulation.
Similarly to my other comment, also when you continue on in the series Paul is shown to be very wrong and is essentially responsible for destroying the Fremen as a culture which is depicted textually as a tragedy and a bad thing.
Yeah, my favorite quote from the book about this is:
Paul saw how Stilgar had been transformed from the Fremen naib to a creature of the Lisan al-Gaib, a receptacle for awe and obedience. It was a lessening of the man, and Paul felt the ghost-wind of the jihad in it.
I have seen a friend become a worshiper, he thought.
Which, considering that due to his Prescience, Paul knew that this would happen, and chose that path anyway. Its some subtext, but Paul only superficially saves the Fremen, which in actually destroying them.
The Museum Fremen of the 4th book is the final nail in the coffin; where the crysknifes are plastic, the Fremen are actors, and outside the cave 'Rakis is a temperate paradise.
It's been a while since I read Dune, but I remember enjoying the story, but it having A LOT of moments about women that had me going :fidel-wut: I don't participate in any Dune-related fandoms or anything, so I'm not sure if that's a common criticism or not.
Herbert for sure has some Opinions About Women. He wrote another book which was about a supervirus bioweapon that only kills women, and the first symptom is getting uncontrollably horny. One of the scientists who is working on a cure informs her research team that she is going to die by revealing that she had masturbated that morning
If a feminist fiction author of Herbert's time had written that kind of a story as satire they'd probably be in english literary canon for it. It's so pig-headed and backwards that it wraps back around to being funny.
That is both awful and absolutely hilarious. :data-laughing:
:volcel-kamala: :congratulations: :fuckin-deserve:
lol
She lived through the plague but never lived that moment down
Yeah, Herbert has real collar-tugging moments when it comes to women in his books.
Chapterhouse: Dune gets REAL funky with it once you get to the Honored Matres and where their uhhh technique differs from the Bene Gesserit.
I read something about the further Dune books that made me decide I wasn't going to have a good time with them, so I stopped at the first book. I don't remember the book that clearly since it's been too long, but I remember there being something about the Bene Gesserit fearing something about the male side of their visions and not being able to go there because they're women, and I was like, "Fuck you Herbert, I ain't scared!" It's very gender essentialist when you think about it.
This point in particular is complex. On the one hand yes, it is, but on the other hand the Bene Gesserit are canonically wrong; disproven by the existence of Leto II who is actually able to access that, and it's not because he's special (I mean he is, but it's besides the point) and that Paul / the Bene Gesserit are just too scared to press on that essentialist understanding.
That being said, once you get later than that even, once Herbert starts getting much older, you start seeing themes around sexual control and that I think gets much more into the yikes territory
Getting to God Emperor of Dune I think is critical to having an appreciation for the series, because the other books are setting up things to be subverted in God Emperor.
Paul is not a white savior, he is an incredibly flawed messiah figure; and one of the biggest themes of the series is to beware messiah figures.
Dune: Chapterhouse, aka the book of Sex Combat (?!?).
I love the Dune books dearly (mostly the first 4 tbh), but yeah, my man Frank got randy in his later years.
Yeah Chapterhouse is the only Dune book I've read only once. I wasn't fooling at the top when I said he gets real fuckin weird with it later on
That's fair, but I don't think I'm going to return to the series anyway. I liked Dune, but I didn't love it enough to continue the series or return to the book in the ~15 years since I read it.
Not every book is for every reader!
Though I may come across as one, I'm not an evangelist for the series and don't really recommend it to people because like I said the payoff is so buried in the books.
Lol, this applies to like every sci-fi writer. I read through all of Larry Niven's Ringworld books and boy is there a lot of weird sex stuff, especially the later books when he ran out of new ideas for the ringworld.
Dune is also super orientalist, i.e., the fremen can’t get anything done until Paul the colonizer helps them. And their belief system has basically been molded by the bene gesserit, meaning that the dark hordes/unwashed masses have no agency and are just playthings of ruling elites, a very lib take on things.
Disagree. This is a very superficial take. Herbert does not just superficially take Middle Eastern aesthetics because he thinks they look cool. He engages meaningfully with Islam and the world around it as he construct his future.
Here's a good article that addresses this idea: https://www.tor.com/2021/10/18/the-muslimness-of-dune-a-close-reading-of-appendix-ii-the-religion-of-dune/
Also, it's not just the fremen who are molded by the Bene Gesserit: the entire galaxy has been shaped by their religious manipulation.
Similarly to my other comment, also when you continue on in the series Paul is shown to be very wrong and is essentially responsible for destroying the Fremen as a culture which is depicted textually as a tragedy and a bad thing.
Yeah, my favorite quote from the book about this is:
Which, considering that due to his Prescience, Paul knew that this would happen, and chose that path anyway. Its some subtext, but Paul only superficially saves the Fremen, which in actually destroying them.
The Museum Fremen of the 4th book is the final nail in the coffin; where the crysknifes are plastic, the Fremen are actors, and outside the cave 'Rakis is a temperate paradise.
That's a good point, the Bene Gesserit manipulated every place just in case they find one of their members stuck there.
Oh yeah, definitely. Very racist in the "but I think ______ is cool, how can I be racist?" kind of way.
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