Not in a great spot. My material needs are met, so don't worry about that. Just want to break out of the cycle I'm in of "oh hey, you have only a few hundred from this paycheck before you're negative again."

  • pocket_tofu [she/her,fae/faer]
    ·
    2 years ago

    Animal exploitation and murder are horrible and disgusting and you should deleted this comment.

    Shrimp and fish are sentient creatures, and you should feel ashamed that you're proposing torturing others as chattel slaves and commodities for a quick buck.

    https://www.shrimpwelfareproject.org/are-shrimps-sentient

    https://viva.org.uk/blog/do-prawns-and-shrimp-feel-pain/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/16/science/depressed-fish.html

    https://aeon.co/essays/fish-are-nothing-like-us-except-that-they-are-sentient-beings

    • MerryChristmas [any]
      ·
      2 years ago

      I absolutely understand why this wouldn't be an "agree to disagree" sort of thing for you, but I'm not having this argument right now. I'll read and consider the links you shared, though.

        • MerryChristmas [any]
          ·
          2 years ago

          If I saw someone's actions as tantamount to genocide then I wouldn't simply agree to disagree. That's what I understand and that's why I'm not asking her to hear me out.

          • Maaskarpone [they/them]
            ·
            2 years ago

            Not good enough. You clearly don't view the animal holocaust as genocide. You don't have the right to simply disengage when the facts don't suit your material interests. Your actions have real-life harmful consequences on the lived experience of subjective, animal people.

            Three questions:

            1. How do you define sentience?
            2. What is the base value of humans?
            3. What do you call systemic killing?

            I'll give you the answers now to save time:

            1. capability of feeling
            2. capability of feeling. Therefore, you should extend the base value of humans to other animals, who are also capable of feeling.
            3. genocide
              • Maaskarpone [they/them]
                ·
                2 years ago

                I did say:

                You don’t have the right to simply disengage when the facts don’t suit your material interests.

                So... ...engaaage and stop ignoring / avoiding the issue vegans raise?

                • MerryChristmas [any]
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  You're right, you did say that.

                  I've already said that I'm going to read the articles that were suggested to me and consider whether they support the idea that breeding pet shrimp is a form of genocide. I don't know what else you expect to get out of this interaction.

              • Maaskarpone [they/them]
                ·
                2 years ago

                The insult doesn't bother me. I had to actually google that term because I didn't know what it meant, and I'm actually quite impressed I gave the impression of a philosopher, as much as I find them as a general rule of thumb revolting people.

                Your insult does beg the question, though: Are values unimportant to you? I focus a lot on values in the points I make. I value human life, for example, and that's why I became anticapitalist. My value for them means I believe shelter should be a human right, and therefore I'm against capitalist private property, like landlordism, for example.

                • a_blanqui_slate [none/use name, any]
                  ·
                  2 years ago

                  Don't worry, you didn't give the impression of a philosopher.

                  And values are ethics, not ontology. Both metaphysics, but not the same. Ontology is the study of "being" and of the attributes that make a "thing" that particular thing.

      • pocket_tofu [she/her,fae/faer]
        ·
        2 years ago

        It's not a comparison, they're literally chattel. They're literally sentient. Stop being a slavery apologist, human supremacist

          • pocket_tofu [she/her,fae/faer]
            ·
            2 years ago

            You exclude nonhumans from personhood so you can excuse forcing them to labor and die for your own profit. You don't want to call it slavery because you're a human supremacist

              • pocket_tofu [she/her,fae/faer]
                ·
                2 years ago

                Perhaps the social schematism of perception in anti-Semites is so altered, that they cannot even see Jews as human beings. The ceaselessly recurrent expression that savages, blacks, Japanese resemble animals, or something like apes, already contains the key to the pogrom. The possibility of this latter is contained in the moment that a mortally wounded animal looks at a human being in the eye. The defiance with which they push away this gaze – 'it’s after all only an animal' – is repeated irresistibly in atrocities to human beings, in which the perpetrators must constantly reconfirm this “only an animal,” because they never entirely believed it even with animals https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/adorno/1951/mm/ch02.htm

              • pocket_tofu [she/her,fae/faer]
                ·
                2 years ago

                Why the fuck are you even bringing up genocide, the Holocaust, and Judaism as a response to me telling you to stop hurting animals? You're very obviously using us as a prop and it's fucking gross and antisemitic. Your very mature response of "no u" when I said you're using Jews as a prop is belied by the fact that it has absolutely nothing to do with carnists like you mocking vegans for saying we shouldn't breed and murder shrimp and fish for money because they're sentient beings who deserve consideration and don't want to die.

          • Maaskarpone [they/them]
            ·
            2 years ago

            Your tone indicates you're not taking me seriously, when I expect a serious response requiring proper engagement from you on the issue of animal abuse. Why aren't you vegan? Please read on the principle of charity. Unironically, though, there is an animal holocaust; you are right. :)

                  • pocket_tofu [she/her,fae/faer]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    Why do you care? You're clearly not asking in good faith. It's wrong to hurt nonhumans, and you should stop trying to justify it by using Jewish people like me as a prop

                      • pocket_tofu [she/her,fae/faer]
                        ·
                        2 years ago

                        It's called a loaded question. So have you, yes or no? If you don't say yes, I'll assume you're still beating your wife

                        • Dingdangdog [he/him,comrade/them]
                          ·
                          2 years ago

                          This is just right wing deflection tactics. Defend your theory, I'm asking a basic question and you're just avoiding it.

                          I'll ask it again and explain my reasoning for asking it:

                          Do vegan beliefs in sentience go so far as to include arthropods, such as wasps, AND if so does that mean to you that the destruction of their nests count as genocide?

                          I am not trolling you. I am literally following on how this thread started, wherein you all told me arthropods were sentient.

                          This is engaging your theory, based on exactly what you said. Give me an answer to this and I'll leave it alone. Not some reddit post. Tell me, in your words, what your theory says about this question.

                          • pocket_tofu [she/her,fae/faer]
                            ·
                            2 years ago

                            This is just right wing deflection tactics.

                            You think me mockingly doing the thing you've continued to do to me even after I pointed it out repeatedly is right wing? Interesting

                            • Dingdangdog [he/him,comrade/them]
                              ·
                              2 years ago

                              I'm not mocking you. I'm literally asking you the same question on repeat. Either way I'm done, one of your comrades responded with an actual answer.

              • Maaskarpone [they/them]
                ·
                2 years ago

                I think the systemic killing of all animals is genocide. The animal kingdom includes wasps, so yes, killing wasps is genocide.

                They are the same thing in terms of genocide. However, as clarification, would I more broadly call the oppressions the same thing in an imprecise way? Yes and no. Yes, because of the co-constitution between animal and human oppression, whose context, values, ideologies, socialised/codified social behaviours and social structure/material conditions are full of continuities. No, because they still have different contexts and have unique oppressions in their own ways. An imprecise answer to that question is analogous to someone saying racism and queerphobia are the same things, which is something I wouldn't claim. Everything needs to be looked at and explored in its unique entirety. We need to acknowledge both the similarities and the differences of the oppressions and consider their unique entireties in order to uproot their evils to our best extent.

                  • Maaskarpone [they/them]
                    ·
                    2 years ago

                    No problem. You're welcome.

                    Though, you do realise one of the reasons why the other person wasn't answering your question is because it's offensive to tokenise groups of people with a bad-faith question. At least, I wouldn't answer in their shoes. The user provided the perspectives of holocaust survivors or their family members. Please read the compiled perspectives, but more crucially please urgently change your behaviour to the animals according to vegan ethics. You don't need to know theory to know that killing innocent beings, our animal cousins, is wrong. You only need empathy and an empathetic (empathic?) response. You understand they suffer like us and want to live? And that their suffering at our hands and their desire to live are valuable for our decision-making? Then, we can act on that. The theory is an added treat, helping us to develop our understanding, but it is not crucial to make this change in behaviour. The theory can come after the switch, and can help develop your praxis.