so the idea that “we don’t do this” is silly chud propaganda imo
no it isn't. don't gaslight me. I've been in feminist and feminist-adjacent spaces for over a decade and the advice to men is endless "don't"s going back at least to elevatorgate, and there's almost never actionable "things to do" because feminists are understandably focused on womens' issues, the advice that straight cis amab people who grew up in western culture want is a ritual to get a partner, and what you *should * o when interacting with a person varies too much from person to person for that kind of advice to even be possible to give.
so it's usually not done. This post is kinda medium despite the effort and it's still the best i've ever seen from a left community.
How is it gaslighting to point out that 'the left doesn't care about mens issues' is a chud talking point, right up there with "why is there no white history month?" or "Where is straight pride month?"
You just said you've been getting advice from feminist spaces, so yes, the left has been trying to help. Telling people not what to do helps them learn what to do. The vast majority of leftist spaces are male dominated and are more then happy to give advice. This thread is proof of that.
Again, I'm not against advice for men, this post is good. I'm just against using mens issues as vehicle for right-wing falsehoods.
Hey, there's a big difference between advice like "don't hit on people in public spaces" and "here's where it's okay to hit on people and how to do it."
The left gives a lot of the first, very little of the second.
How is it gaslighting to point out that ‘the left doesn’t care about mens issues’ is a chud talking point, right up there with “why is there no white history month?” or “Where is straight pride month?”
this is ridiculous. I'm telling you my personal experience of a decade plus of online leftism and feminism and posts like this are extremely rare and never good enough. You're contradicting my report of my obsevations. Stop it.
You just said you’ve been getting advice from feminist spaces, so yes, the left has been trying to help.
"hey guys don't hit on women in confined spaces where they can't leave" is absolutely not "caring about mens issues". There's some "patriarchy hurts men too" discourse every couple years but feminists are rightly focused on what they're focused on for activism and attention, i.e. not mens' issues (and it's bad and wrong to go into specifically feminist spaces and ask them to to spend a bunch of time and effort on men) so the best we've got is :reddit-logo: r/menslib
Telling people not what to do helps them learn what to do.
no it really doesn't. certainly never did for me.
This thread is proof of that.
this thread only exists because of multiple preceding observations of how little content like this there is... and it's still not good enough, possibly because it's not possible to ever be prescriptive and correct enough to help people with interpersonal relations, let alone men and male-passing people deal with patriarchy and interact with other people steeped in and harmed by patriarchal culture.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not against discussing men's issues and helping men. I am against the idea that the left doesn't care about or want to help men. It's simply untrue. To accuse the left, which is largely dominated by men, of being anti-male is ridiculous.
tbh I'm the one starting to feel a little gaslighted here. That or we are both missing each other's points entirely.
Perhaps we mean something different by "caring"? There are a lot of situations and events that suck and I don't callously disregard them but i have no time, effort, or influence on them so i don't actively claim to care, and that's how i've perceived liberal feminist and left (and like, BIPOC toward the struggles unique to white people) attitudes toward the issues facing people on the other side of the relevant privilege axis. chuds pointing out something that's vaguely accurate doesn't mean there's a wealth of positive constructive advice.
we care about poor white people but all we really offer them is "hey it's a class struggle" and we have no political power (at least in the states) to do much more than union organizing, but that may or may not be enough help to some cracker who's being crushed by capitalism, but that person isn't really a priority.
Then post to it more. Also to be fair the main comms have been used to ask about mens issues too. Men enjoy being the default human of society, so mens fashion just gets posted to fashion, mens socializing gets posted to the default neurodiverge comm, etc.
like what? i'm completely fallen through the cracks and have nothing to say unprompted. Shit sucks and you all aren't my therapist or capable of changing my material conditions and the revolution isn't tomorrow.
i want advice that applicable and useful. So far it's "embody a bunch of culturally normative bullshit" and if I was capable of doing that i don't think i would've found my way into communism.
i think that's bullshit too, but this post is about socializing and a subfocus on attracting women to be partners which i have been told we should not do at work, so makeup for the workplace is striking me as a weird example at the moment. i understand that's not core to your point.
as this is c/menby i'd rather not go on a big tangent about womens' issues and i'm only qualified to tell you things i've observed or learned by listening and that you already know anyway.
no. womens' issues exist and are legitimate but this is not the comm, i'd be happy to read an actual comparative discussion about it in another comm but not here and I do not seek to condescend to you things you know more about than I do.
no it isn't. don't gaslight me. I've been in feminist and feminist-adjacent spaces for over a decade and the advice to men is endless "don't"s going back at least to elevatorgate, and there's almost never actionable "things to do" because feminists are understandably focused on womens' issues, the advice that straight cis amab people who grew up in western culture want is a ritual to get a partner, and what you *should * o when interacting with a person varies too much from person to person for that kind of advice to even be possible to give.
so it's usually not done. This post is kinda medium despite the effort and it's still the best i've ever seen from a left community.
How is it gaslighting to point out that 'the left doesn't care about mens issues' is a chud talking point, right up there with "why is there no white history month?" or "Where is straight pride month?"
You just said you've been getting advice from feminist spaces, so yes, the left has been trying to help. Telling people not what to do helps them learn what to do. The vast majority of leftist spaces are male dominated and are more then happy to give advice. This thread is proof of that.
Again, I'm not against advice for men, this post is good. I'm just against using mens issues as vehicle for right-wing falsehoods.
Hey, there's a big difference between advice like "don't hit on people in public spaces" and "here's where it's okay to hit on people and how to do it."
The left gives a lot of the first, very little of the second.
this is ridiculous. I'm telling you my personal experience of a decade plus of online leftism and feminism and posts like this are extremely rare and never good enough. You're contradicting my report of my obsevations. Stop it.
"hey guys don't hit on women in confined spaces where they can't leave" is absolutely not "caring about mens issues". There's some "patriarchy hurts men too" discourse every couple years but feminists are rightly focused on what they're focused on for activism and attention, i.e. not mens' issues (and it's bad and wrong to go into specifically feminist spaces and ask them to to spend a bunch of time and effort on men) so the best we've got is :reddit-logo: r/menslib
no it really doesn't. certainly never did for me.
this thread only exists because of multiple preceding observations of how little content like this there is... and it's still not good enough, possibly because it's not possible to ever be prescriptive and correct enough to help people with interpersonal relations, let alone men and male-passing people deal with patriarchy and interact with other people steeped in and harmed by patriarchal culture.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not against discussing men's issues and helping men. I am against the idea that the left doesn't care about or want to help men. It's simply untrue. To accuse the left, which is largely dominated by men, of being anti-male is ridiculous.
tbh I'm the one starting to feel a little gaslighted here. That or we are both missing each other's points entirely.
Perhaps we mean something different by "caring"? There are a lot of situations and events that suck and I don't callously disregard them but i have no time, effort, or influence on them so i don't actively claim to care, and that's how i've perceived liberal feminist and left (and like, BIPOC toward the struggles unique to white people) attitudes toward the issues facing people on the other side of the relevant privilege axis. chuds pointing out something that's vaguely accurate doesn't mean there's a wealth of positive constructive advice.
we care about poor white people but all we really offer them is "hey it's a class struggle" and we have no political power (at least in the states) to do much more than union organizing, but that may or may not be enough help to some cracker who's being crushed by capitalism, but that person isn't really a priority.
Well, I don't think I'm much help lol. In any case, here's hoping that by talking more about it we can get closer towards something more helpful.
yeah. ulysses expanded on something i asked about directly and that reply seems like it could be useful to someone
Ulysses is a good guy :comfy-cool:
We literally have a com dedicated to men's issues. To say the left doesn't care about men is a chud talking point.
all three posts? please. https://hexbear.net/c/menby
Then post to it more. Also to be fair the main comms have been used to ask about mens issues too. Men enjoy being the default human of society, so mens fashion just gets posted to fashion, mens socializing gets posted to the default neurodiverge comm, etc.
like what? i'm completely fallen through the cracks and have nothing to say unprompted. Shit sucks and you all aren't my therapist or capable of changing my material conditions and the revolution isn't tomorrow.
???
So do you want advice or do you not want advice then?
i want advice that applicable and useful. So far it's "embody a bunch of culturally normative bullshit" and if I was capable of doing that i don't think i would've found my way into communism.
I think that's something a lot of people struggle with and that humanity in large is still trying to figure out.
:yea:
:meow-hug:
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i think that's bullshit too, but this post is about socializing and a subfocus on attracting women to be partners which i have been told we should not do at work, so makeup for the workplace is striking me as a weird example at the moment. i understand that's not core to your point.
as this is c/menby i'd rather not go on a big tangent about womens' issues and i'm only qualified to tell you things i've observed or learned by listening and that you already know anyway.
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no. womens' issues exist and are legitimate but this is not the comm, i'd be happy to read an actual comparative discussion about it in another comm but not here and I do not seek to condescend to you things you know more about than I do.
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