I've come across multiple people online who maintain that actually Dialectical and Historical Materialism and Scientific Socialism are not Marxism and were invented by Engels and later used by Stalin to justify the brutal totalitarian bla bla bla.

Obviously it's a specious claim, but does anyone know its source? Is there a specific tendency that claims this? Is there a book or a podcast that all these losers are consuming?

  • ComradeRat [he/him, they/them]
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    2 years ago

    Regarding the idea of Engels and Marx as a collaboratory pair, I’ve already discussed the lack of Collaboration in Capital, but here I will discuss their earlier collaborations. “German Ideology” will be saved for last because its context is the most complicated. “Holy Family” was Marx and Engels’ first collaboration. Engels was first author because he was better known at the time. He wrote his piece in it, before departing back to his family in the Wupper valley in Prussia. Marx remained in Paris and wrote his contribution, which formed the majority of the work. Because they wrote their parts separately, it’s different from a true collaboration imo.

    The Communist Manifesto is closer to collaboration and unity of ideas. While Marx wrote it “himself” (as always he discussed it with Jenny, there’s some evidence that some of the phrases in the Manifesto are hers), it was based on the catechism Engels wrote beforehand. Imo its honestly not a great theoretical text, it can and should be criticised for a lotta stuff (eurocentrism, “imperialism is progressive” takes, linear stagist view of history (Marx was only 29 at the time, he got better)). The style is still amazing ofc.

    The German Ideology Articles are more complicated. They were a collaborative work of self clarification by Marx and Engels, actually written together unlike the other two collaborations.This is the point in their lives when they were most on the same page (from here until Marx is in London imo). However there’s three other points which must be made. First, the articles were originally written not as one work, but as a series of articles dealing with various german philosophers in 1846. “The German Ideology” is the title it was given by the MEGA1 project. The editors of MEGA1 not only combined these articles into one “book,” they inserted into the text sentences and paragraphs Marx had written in sheets of contemporaneous notes and made inferences in some places where the text was incomplete. In justification they claimed they were illuminating the “dialectical coherence” of the text. (Johnson 2022) Further, when Engels rediscovered the manuscripts some time after Marx's death, he remarked that even "the finished portion [of Feuerbach]...proves only how incomplete our knowledge of economic hisotry still was at that time." (Engels, Ludwig Feuerbach, preface, 1886), there are an array of issues with it, not least of which its stagist linear view of history and belief that the steam engine caused capitalism (the latter of which is explicitly corrected by Marx in chapter 15 of Capital).

    So Engels and Marx’s three [edit: after waking up and making another check of this I finally remembered Anti-Duhring Exists. Its writing was more in the vein of Holy Family as best as we can tell. Engels claim to have read the entire thing to Marx wasn't made until post-1883, however this should not be understood as "Engels was a lier," it likely simply wasn't really relevant to mention Marx's knowledge of it in writing until this point, he most likely agreed with at least the broad points.] works which were collaborations were written before either had turned 30, and before the vast, vast majority of marx’s research. This point— from Marx’s second meeting with engels in paris to his flight to london as a refugee — marks the most united the two men ever were in views as far as I can tell from my investigations. After the failure of the revolutions of 48, Marx found himself in desperate straits; half his kids died in the slums of london. Engels went back to his father and worked at the mill, this was the end of the period where marx and engels collaborated as partners in theoretical matters, and the beginning of Engels helping marx make rent and groceries (though marx was not a freeloader, he kept a steady job as a correspondent for the new york tribune and wrote other articles), he had much less free time to devote to theory during his working period. It seems natural to me that their perspectives would diverge to some extent.

    So to summarise: engels differs from marx wrt theory in some respects — more teleological (in engels view history moves through fixed, discrete stages which will eventually lead to an “end” of history in a communism based on large scale industrial production and luxury consumption), less belief in the colonised as revolutionary subjects (in engels view they are objects of imperialism which will be transformed (cultural, etc, genocide) into revolutionary subject urban industrial proletarians), less multilinear/horizontal and more stagist/vertical view of history (in engels’ view, linear history, each stage an ‘advance’ on the previous leading to an ultimate end of history). Their collaboration in terms of theory was mostly a thing of their early lives, we should instead turn to Jenny Marx (sr.) and Eleanor Marx as Karl Marx’s most immediate theoretical collaborators.

    Stalin differs from Engels in terms of theory, but they were similar (in a good way) imo in that they were able to take highly complex and abstract ideas and simplify and make them more applicable to the situation at hand. Deng was similar in this regard. The main theoretical difference as I understand it is that Engels believed in the revolutionary proletarian subject whereas the bolshevik analysis led to an anti-imperialist rural majority revolution with tenuous urban leadership (which solidified later).

    • ComradeRat [he/him, they/them]
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      2 years ago

      “Dialectical materialism” “historical materialism” “scientific socialism” and “marxism” are terms that have been defined and redefined so often that there’s no real way to know exactly what is meant unless the person using the word has explained how they intend it. If I had to define them, as I understand it, dialectical materialism is the application of the dialectic (i.e. very broadly and simplified a relational ontology, which marx derived from hegel, and epicurus) to reality as understood by “ascend[ing] from earth to heaven” (marx, german ideology articles, 1846) rather than the reverse. Historical materialism is (again rly simplified) the application of dialectical materialism to history (in a definition of history where history is understood to be the sum of literally everything). Scientific socialism is the refusal to build castles in the sky, how socialism should be built is decided based on the actual conditions rather than theoretical presumptions. Marxism can mean a lotta things, from the most restrictive “the literal thought of karl marx” to the very broad “the thought of anyone calling on marx’s abstractions and conceptual tools”. Marx used some of these terms, especially scientific socialism afaik but not in the sense of a concrete system through which everything is explained and abstractive categories fixed, usually as descriptive terms for what he was doing.

      Engels had more of a tendency to use these sort of fixed terms, but not by much afaik. The standardization and formalization (and in a sense, invention) of first three terms came mostly with the post-Engels German left as I understand it (i.e. Kautsky and friends). Marxism-Leninism can be understood as Marxism as adapted to Russian material conditions and ‘standardized’ by Stalin. To an extent this entails ‘distortions’ because an actually existing socialist project is going to be much more riddled by contradictions than an abstract critique of the existing systems, but this should not be understood as “Stalin and Engels ruined Marxism,” rather imo they had differing interpretations of some things. I think their interpretations are wrong, but the vast majority of them are equally valid, or clearly understandable in the contexts they were in.

      works consulted

      Books (all of them have flaws to various extents etc etc read critically)

      Anderson - Marx at the Margins; On Nationalism, Ethicity and Non-Western Societies

      Bedford & Irving - The Tragedy of Progress; Marxism, Modernity and the Aboriginal Question

      Carver - Marx & Engels; The Intellectual Relationship

      Delphy - Close to Home; A Materialist Analysis of Women’s Oppression

      Federici - Caliban and the Witch; Women, the Body and Primitive Accumulation

      Foster - Marx's Ecology; Materialism and Nature

      Gabriel - Love and Capital; Karl and Jenny Marx and the Birth of a Revolution

      Heinrich - Karl Marx and the Birth of Modern Society; The Life of Marx and the Development of His Work volume One

      Kotkin - Stalin Volime One; Paradoxes of Power

      Lewontin - Biology as Ideology; The Doctrine of DNA

      Liedman - A World to Win; the Life and Works of Karl Marx

      Marx - Capital Volume I

      Marx - Capital Volume II

      Marx - Capital Volume III

      Marx & Engels - Letters on Capital

      Churchill et al. - Marxism and Native Americans

      Musto ed. - Marx and Le Capital; Evaluation, History, Reception

      Musto ed. - Rethinking Alternatives with Marx; Economy, Ecology and Migration

      Musto - The Last Years of Karl Marx; an Intellectual Biography

      Ollman - Dance of the Dialectic; Steps in Marx's Method

      Patnaik & Moyo - Primitive Accumulation and the Peasantry; the Agrarian Question in the Neoliberal Era

      Roberts - Stalin's Library; A Dictator and His Books

      Saito - Karl Marx's Ecosocialism; Capital, Nature, and the Unfinished Critique of Political Economy

      Papers

      Anderson - The 'Unknown' Marx's Capital, Volume 1; The French Edition of 1872-75, 100 Years Later

      Hudis - The Third World Road to Socialism; New Perspectives on Marx's Writings From his Last Decade

      Pinho - The Originality of Marx's French Edition of Capital; an Historical Analysis

      Malm - Marx on Steam; From the Optimism of Progress to the Pessimism of Power

      Meyer - Joseph Stalin and the Left; Reflections Occasioned by Stephen Kotkin's Paradoxs of Power

      Deleixhe - Marx, The Irish Immigrant-Workers, and the English Labour Movement

      Johnson - Farewell to The German Ideology

      Williams & Chandler - 'Tussy's Great Delusion' - Eleanor Marx's Death Revisited

      Anderson - Revisiting Marx on Race, Capitalism and Revolution

      Mauro - Learning Dialectics to Grow Better Soils Knowledge, not Bigger Crops; A Materialist Dialectics and Relationality for Soil Science

      Alvares - On Karl Marx's 'Ethnological Notebooks'

      Beatty - The Two Irish Wives of Friedrich Engels; Recovering the Narrative of Mary and Lizzie Burns

      Salas Perez - All Our Relations (of Production); Losing and Finding Marx in the Field of Indian Materialism

      Anderson - Marx s late writings on non Western and precapitalist societies and gender