The real answer is that there's a biological drive in many people to procreate and much of human psychology, like all other procreating animals, is geared towards this. It's like asking "Why have sex when STDs exist?", completely absurd, people do it because they want to. Heck, I'm really hoping someday can find a way for trans women to be pregnant and give birth because I'd like to have a kid but just can't stand the idea of doing it the male way.
ok but should we I have biological drives to drink when I'm thirsty and have no duty not to follow them. I don't accept that having kids is wrong because the anti-natalist argument heavily relies on the idea that suffering is real and matters but pleasure isn't and doesn't which is just ridiculous
that's a misunderstanding or misrepresentation. Pleasure is real but it doesn't negate suffering.
no amount of future pleasure can make up for what i've suffered, and i reject the idea that any amount of suffering or pleasure are interchangeable like a math equation.
it's not moral to put someone in a situation where they will be harmed without their consent. it doesn't suddenly become OK to lead someone to harm or cause them harm just because you give them pleasurable things later.
but everyone suffers. it's inevitable, especially under capitalism, but even things like school bullying, heartbreak, and accidental injuries would continue to happen to people even if communism wins. to say nothing of all the suffering between now and then that could be avoided.
If it's immoral to cause someone harm or put them in a situation where they will come to harm without their consent then it must also be immoral to create new people who will inevitably be harmed and hurt.
you can't know ahead of time if someone will think their life was worth living.
I have been through great suffering over the course of my life when I was a child I almost died from a horrific illness and it instilled in me a burning desire to live. Because of this I find it hard to appreciate your position
Life is a beautiful thing and even the pain I have suffered made me who I am and I would not trade it away if I could. You cannot know ahead of time that someone won't think their life was worth living
I have been through great suffering over the course of my life when I was a child I almost died from a horrific illness and it instilled in me a burning desire to live. Because of this I find it hard to appreciate your position
wanting to never have been born and wanting to die are very very different things.
and even the pain I have suffered made me who I am and I would not trade it away if I could.
that's your choice to make but the question is whether it's OK to put somebody else through what you've been through without being able to ask them.
You cannot know ahead of time that someone won’t think their life was worth living
that isn't equivalent to my statement, we know with 100% certainty that people will suffer for being alive, even if it's just aches or boredom or something trivial. It wouldn't be moral to go around zapping people with a device that made people experience the unpleasant sensation that happens when your foot falls asleep.
nothing is lost if somebody doesn't exist in the first place but pain is guaranteed if they do.
everything is lost if somebody doesn't exist. Everytime they help another, every moment of fellowship, everytime they experience beauty, contentment and joy
if the cost of existence is that sometimes you have to experience pain and discomfort then it's a bargain at twice the price
I know with the same certainty you do that just as everyone will suffer so too will they experience pleasure and cause pleasure in others.
There will eventually be an external womb and uterus, so that women can finally be liberated from the unpaid labor of carrying children. Not to mention the dire threats to their health that come from not just one, but multiple childbirths.
It's a fair question, tbh. The real answer ime is that most people don't really think about the future as a coping mechanism.
The real answer is that there's a biological drive in many people to procreate and much of human psychology, like all other procreating animals, is geared towards this. It's like asking "Why have sex when STDs exist?", completely absurd, people do it because they want to. Heck, I'm really hoping someday can find a way for trans women to be pregnant and give birth because I'd like to have a kid but just can't stand the idea of doing it the male way.
there's biological drives for a lot of things but we can occasionally control ourselves.
ok but should we I have biological drives to drink when I'm thirsty and have no duty not to follow them. I don't accept that having kids is wrong because the anti-natalist argument heavily relies on the idea that suffering is real and matters but pleasure isn't and doesn't which is just ridiculous
that's a misunderstanding or misrepresentation. Pleasure is real but it doesn't negate suffering.
no amount of future pleasure can make up for what i've suffered, and i reject the idea that any amount of suffering or pleasure are interchangeable like a math equation.
it's not moral to put someone in a situation where they will be harmed without their consent. it doesn't suddenly become OK to lead someone to harm or cause them harm just because you give them pleasurable things later.
mate what you have suffered which I am truly sorry for by the way is not a universal experience and thus is not applicable to a general case.
Suffering is real but it is not the only real thing and to focus on suffering to the exclusion of all else is unhealthy and reductive
but everyone suffers. it's inevitable, especially under capitalism, but even things like school bullying, heartbreak, and accidental injuries would continue to happen to people even if communism wins. to say nothing of all the suffering between now and then that could be avoided.
If it's immoral to cause someone harm or put them in a situation where they will come to harm without their consent then it must also be immoral to create new people who will inevitably be harmed and hurt.
you can't know ahead of time if someone will think their life was worth living.
I have been through great suffering over the course of my life when I was a child I almost died from a horrific illness and it instilled in me a burning desire to live. Because of this I find it hard to appreciate your position
Life is a beautiful thing and even the pain I have suffered made me who I am and I would not trade it away if I could. You cannot know ahead of time that someone won't think their life was worth living
wanting to never have been born and wanting to die are very very different things.
that's your choice to make but the question is whether it's OK to put somebody else through what you've been through without being able to ask them.
that isn't equivalent to my statement, we know with 100% certainty that people will suffer for being alive, even if it's just aches or boredom or something trivial. It wouldn't be moral to go around zapping people with a device that made people experience the unpleasant sensation that happens when your foot falls asleep.
nothing is lost if somebody doesn't exist in the first place but pain is guaranteed if they do.
everything is lost if somebody doesn't exist. Everytime they help another, every moment of fellowship, everytime they experience beauty, contentment and joy
if the cost of existence is that sometimes you have to experience pain and discomfort then it's a bargain at twice the price
I know with the same certainty you do that just as everyone will suffer so too will they experience pleasure and cause pleasure in others.
i don't think you realize how insensitive what you just said is.
I don't think you're being sensitive I think you're being dissmissive and fatalistic
if you define yourself by your pain it consumes you
There will eventually be an external womb and uterus, so that women can finally be liberated from the unpaid labor of carrying children. Not to mention the dire threats to their health that come from not just one, but multiple childbirths.
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