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Most people are not sitting around all day thinking about how the world is doomed and how all kids alive today are going to die miserable deaths. Like, the vast majority of people.
yeah, people who have the luxury of family planning and actually making a choice are (hopefully) considering the kind of life they can provide for their child but like the rest of western society i'm sure that doesn't include thinking climate change very much or very often
I don't usually say this, but
These people need to touch grass
Like have someone physically drag them outside and push them down in a nice park
This child will make a fine soldier in my army. You may take two big sips of potable water.
Yo for real the anti natalist are insane.
All you guys are not going to die from climate change. You are gonna die from the eco fascist movement that arises in 30 years from the children being born by the fucking right wing freaks popping them out right now.
Have a kid, raise a communist, and fight a revolution with them.
I'd like for you to think about this post a little more, specifically thinking about what "raise a communist" means in the imperial core where you might not even be able to afford a house and then compare that to the past era where socialist schools run by, like, the German SPD existed.
If people can post “don’t have kids, it’s evil” I can post “raise a communist”
No it's an argument in favor of being a radical activist instead of a boring institutional theory NERD
My great grandparents were raised in a hovel and as kids rarely had enough to eat. They raised communists
The same reason people have always had children: to pluck purity from the innocence of the void and corrupt it utterly. When the universe is filled with more pain than it can bear, it will tear itself apart in shame, leaving nothing left but Truth. Every parent knows this.
It's a fair question, tbh. The real answer ime is that most people don't really think about the future as a coping mechanism.
The real answer is that there's a biological drive in many people to procreate and much of human psychology, like all other procreating animals, is geared towards this. It's like asking "Why have sex when STDs exist?", completely absurd, people do it because they want to. Heck, I'm really hoping someday can find a way for trans women to be pregnant and give birth because I'd like to have a kid but just can't stand the idea of doing it the male way.
there's biological drives for a lot of things but we can occasionally control ourselves.
ok but should we I have biological drives to drink when I'm thirsty and have no duty not to follow them. I don't accept that having kids is wrong because the anti-natalist argument heavily relies on the idea that suffering is real and matters but pleasure isn't and doesn't which is just ridiculous
that's a misunderstanding or misrepresentation. Pleasure is real but it doesn't negate suffering.
no amount of future pleasure can make up for what i've suffered, and i reject the idea that any amount of suffering or pleasure are interchangeable like a math equation.
it's not moral to put someone in a situation where they will be harmed without their consent. it doesn't suddenly become OK to lead someone to harm or cause them harm just because you give them pleasurable things later.
mate what you have suffered which I am truly sorry for by the way is not a universal experience and thus is not applicable to a general case.
Suffering is real but it is not the only real thing and to focus on suffering to the exclusion of all else is unhealthy and reductive
but everyone suffers. it's inevitable, especially under capitalism, but even things like school bullying, heartbreak, and accidental injuries would continue to happen to people even if communism wins. to say nothing of all the suffering between now and then that could be avoided.
If it's immoral to cause someone harm or put them in a situation where they will come to harm without their consent then it must also be immoral to create new people who will inevitably be harmed and hurt.
you can't know ahead of time if someone will think their life was worth living.
I have been through great suffering over the course of my life when I was a child I almost died from a horrific illness and it instilled in me a burning desire to live. Because of this I find it hard to appreciate your position
Life is a beautiful thing and even the pain I have suffered made me who I am and I would not trade it away if I could. You cannot know ahead of time that someone won't think their life was worth living
I have been through great suffering over the course of my life when I was a child I almost died from a horrific illness and it instilled in me a burning desire to live. Because of this I find it hard to appreciate your position
wanting to never have been born and wanting to die are very very different things.
and even the pain I have suffered made me who I am and I would not trade it away if I could.
that's your choice to make but the question is whether it's OK to put somebody else through what you've been through without being able to ask them.
You cannot know ahead of time that someone won’t think their life was worth living
that isn't equivalent to my statement, we know with 100% certainty that people will suffer for being alive, even if it's just aches or boredom or something trivial. It wouldn't be moral to go around zapping people with a device that made people experience the unpleasant sensation that happens when your foot falls asleep.
nothing is lost if somebody doesn't exist in the first place but pain is guaranteed if they do.
everything is lost if somebody doesn't exist. Everytime they help another, every moment of fellowship, everytime they experience beauty, contentment and joy
if the cost of existence is that sometimes you have to experience pain and discomfort then it's a bargain at twice the price
I know with the same certainty you do that just as everyone will suffer so too will they experience pleasure and cause pleasure in others.
i don't think you realize how insensitive what you just said is.
I don't think you're being sensitive I think you're being dissmissive and fatalistic
if you define yourself by your pain it consumes you
There will eventually be an external womb and uterus, so that women can finally be liberated from the unpaid labor of carrying children. Not to mention the dire threats to their health that come from not just one, but multiple childbirths.
Of the people I know having kids, they're either wealthy yuppies who will inherit enough to cover their children's needs, or they're survivalist homesteader type who are home schooling their kids in Alaska. Or they're broke and come from big families and having kids early and often is just what you do
The virgin why would you have children they'll be miserable
vs. The Chad why would you have children you'll be miserable
If my parents had been paying attention in 89 they could've decided not to have children, but while things have been getting worse for my entire life I've still enjoyed being alive (at times).
"I don't personally want kids so anyone who has that biological urge or desire must have ulterior motives".
If people living in apartheid Palestine are willing to have kids, I don't see the point of anti-natalism. Like, imagine repeating the same anti-natalist talking points in front of a bunch of Palestinians. "To be born in occupied Palestine is to born in a life full of misery, so you should just not have kids and be the last generation of Palestinians who have to live in occupied Palestine." I'm sure your average Palestinian is going to be very grateful that the anti-natalist advice for coping in occupied Palestine is to not have children and run the clock until every last Palestinian is dead. Who would've thought that the way to fight against oppression of Palestinians to wait until every last Palestinian is dead so that there's no more Palestinians to oppress.
Palestinian minds can't apprehend the razor sharp antinatalist arguments proffered by unemployed western 23 year olds, unfortunately.
i can't imagine palestine has great access to family planning, contraceptives, or abortion specifically let alone medical care at all. fucking is fun and free (until you have to take care of a kid)
gotta have more kids in case some of them
die of choleraget killed by the IDFbut no, It hardly seems ethical to subject someone to living in occupied palestine, which is why the apartheid needs to be stopped, but in the meantime i couldn't knowingly and willingly put a kid through that. i'm mad enough at my own parents and by comparison i live in the lap of luxury.
which is why the apartheid needs to be stopped
Stopped by who? If the anti-natalists had their way, the liberation struggle would fall apart in a few decades because everyone involved would've either died from combat or old age with no future fighters to replace them. The Palestinian national liberation is a struggle that spans generations. How would anti-natalism even fit into this? If anything, anti-natalism is reactionary because it means Palestinians should not only give up their liberatory struggle but also save the Zionists trouble by self-genociding themselves instead. This is reactionary nonsense.
stopped by the people doing it. stopped by the international community that should be allies of the palestinians rather than the regime. resisted by the people who are already alive.
what gives you the right to conscript someone into a generation-spanning struggle?
stopped by the people doing it.
"Please stop genociding us, Mr. Zionist."
stopped by the international community that should be allies of the palestinians rather than the regime.
Well, they're not pulling their weight. So what is to be done?
resisted by the people who are already alive.
And as I outlined earlier, the struggle will take generations. Are you under the impression the Zionist entity is gonna collapse within a year or something?
what gives you the right to conscript someone into a generation-spanning struggle?
I don't have the political power to stop Palestinians from having kids. There's isn't a magical button that I'm not pressing labeled "Palestinians can't make babies anymore."
If you don't want kids, that's your personal choice. But other people want to have kids and they're gonna have kids regardless of your objections, so what is to do be done?
Wow that’s so terrible you had the horrid experience of living. I feel so bad for you
yeah you know, i've been made to suffer my entire life and nothing can make up for that. thank you for your compassion and understanding.
Lol the person asking for humanity to cease its existence is asking for compassion.
I think we can agree everyone here is in reasonable good faith so yeah lets have compassion for each other
Banned? DM Wmill to appeal. No anti-natilasm posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer
The person here is making anti natalism posts. That is clearly banned.
They are not in good faith, it’s virtue signaling over a viewpoint that can only be deemed fascistic.
I'm not terrible with women, I am simply choosing not to reproduce to do my part for the environment :gigachad:
what's the point of beign of a communist if you don't believe that you can build a better future for childrens?
making like better for people who have the misfortune of being born is completely separate from whether or not it's moral to make more people to live, suffer, and die under the current regime. Do you really think we're less than 50 years from communism? less than 20? growing up in capitalism scars us for life, what gives you the right to force that on someone else?
You are losing all aspects of this argument.
Please reconsider the idea that the extermination of the human race is a good idea
Super easy to understand when you analyze how people eat, think about religion, stopped caring about COVID, etc. The capitalist subject is just a desire machine.
