Oh hey, it's time for
power dynamics.
between grown-ass adults again!
I was going to be sort of indifferent to that, but in advance someone had to chant "touch grass" and cite a 50+ year old theocrat from antiquity (and omit that theocrat's 9 year old child bride) as an example of everything being on the up and up as long as it's culturally acceptable.
Weren't all the excesses of the Sun Kings and the Czars also "culturally acceptable" until they weren't? :thinkin-lenin:
:ok: why are you describing your comment interaction you had below to me
Because I wanted to describe the comment interaction. :yes:
I don't even disagree with your take really but why the fuck did the OP's first replies drift into the magical realm of justifying literal child brides right of the bat? :sus-torment:
I keep seeing people refer to this as a struggle session, but I must have missed it. I've never seen anyone on this site argue that adults shouldn't be allowed to date each other
I've seen it called creepy when somebody's dating pool doesn't age with them. But it is creepy, and I don't think they care. If they do care, then it's funnier
I don’t care about 60 year olds dating 30 year olds. I just assume white guys finding ‘love’ in Asia are weirdos.
I just assume white guys
finding ‘love’ in Asiaare weirdos.In my experience it’s usually anglos. Other white Europeans are usually normal in other countries
Yeah, he's a sexpat until proven otherwise. And the fact he's double her age isn't helping the "proven otherwise."
comes off as orientalist/racist.
Ooof this whole thread... But I think you have a point. It's ironic that the user who's freaking out about this (and honestly needs to log off) used a Ben Shapiro emote because his argument is almost indistinguishable, frankly, from all the Islamophobic nonsense I see with respect to this issue. Maybe he should read up on some Marxists from Islamic countries or something. Ironically he complains about people abusing the world "materialism" but when it comes to this issue his idealism is clearly shining through. It's sad because this kind of discourse alienates POC, especially Muslim POC for whom this issue is used as an Islamophobic weapon. Once again hexbear never fails to amaze me in how insensitive it can be to other cultures, especially Islamic ones. I honestly worry if someone like him came into power. I know it's a meme, but he'd he "authoritarian" in a bad way...
Once again hexbear never fails to amaze me in how insensitive it can be to other cultures, especially Islamic ones. I honestly worry if someone like him came into power. I know it’s a meme, but he’d he “authoritarian” in a bad way…
Had to create an account just to say hard agree. It also kinda bugs me how so many of these westoids will unironically use the halal and haram emotes or say things like inshallah or mashallah. Like how many of these people have actually read the Quran, or even stepped foot inside a mosque? Do they know about the various schools of Sunni law and theology, not to mention with Shia or other areas of thought. Do they know anything about history?
I doubt it. It's like they're cosplaying as white saviors in the defense of Islam and Muslims, except for when it comes to things that personally bug them, in which case they immediate revert to 2000s fedora-wearing Sam Harris loving reddit atheists.
EDIT: Holy shit I just realized what that dude did. When his own source basically disproved what he was saying he replied with this:
I used a deliberately “generous” source that still admits that the event happened. I could have used a much more incendiary one, but I didn’t.
I don't know how to read that except as "I could have used a super Islamophobic and hateful source but I didn't." Dude this is like when a white person says to a black person "hey I could have called you an n-word but I didn't."
Holy shit I just realized what that dude did. When his own source basically disproved what he was saying he replied with this:
I used a deliberately “generous” source that still admits that the event happened. I could have used a much more incendiary one, but I didn’t.I don’t know how to read that except as “I could have used a super Islamophobic and hateful source but I didn’t.” Dude this is like when a white person says to a black person “hey I could have called you an n-word but I didn’t.”
Oh jeez I didn't even realize that. Yeah that's pretty bad, IMO.
Two posters in this comment chain are very, very interested in what was culturally accepted in history :epstein: , and want to slap the "materialism" power word over it because it's Hexbear's equivalent of saying "Logic and Reason and Facts" :last-sight:
Come to think of it, what leftist movement is even possible if "culturally accepted" is the blank check used to justify the actions of the ruling class whenever and wherever convenient? :cap-think:
I do really hate the pseudos who are "you're idealist, I'm actually being so materialist right now" so critical support to you.
I do really hate the pseudos who are “you’re idealist, I’m actually being so materialist right now”
It's always for the most petty and selfish personal agendas, too. I think that's happening in this thread, too. Anything you want is idealist, anything they want is materialist. :galaxy-brain:
I'm more bothered by it because it's pseudo-marxism for pseudo-intellectuals and it gains purchase online because few others know better because studying marxism by yourself is a pain in the ass, so we have a glut of these fucking morons who shit up so many discussions with "you're being idealist if you don't want people fucking children and waving the flag" or whatever regressive act they're trying to defend/falsely proletarianize.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. You said it better than I did. :order-of-lenin:
Your kind of argument could also apply to the Tibetan child sex slave system because it was "historically not a big deal" and lots of revered religious figures participated for centuries.
Come to think of it, "culturally accepted" is such a blank check that female genital mutilation, throwing widows onto funeral pyres, and "honor killings" can also apply.
:mao-wtf: :sus-soviet:
EDIT: How convenient to mention Mohammad's first marriage without mentioning his third marriage to a 9 year old when he was in his 50s. But it was so culturally accepted that excuses and apologia were made about that for centuries afterward to this day :morshupls:
I mean biden did say "between adults" so I'm gonna interpret it charitably.
The child bride after that first wife's death was conveniently omitted. (CW: disturbing SV)
https://islamfyi.princeton.edu/is-it-true-that-muhammad-married-a-child-bride-by-the-name-of-ayesha-when-he-was-53-and-she-was-9-years-old-if-so-how-do-muslims-justify-this-from-their-exemplary-prophet/
spoiler
Also, the text says "consummated" the marriage when he was in his 50s and she was 9. No excuses.
EDIT: Also, "between adults" goalposts moved in a speeding boat all the way to :epstein: 's island in this comment chain. Everything that happened in the past is cool and good because it was socially acceptable in the past, even when it has centuries of controversy and apologia to try to justify it generation after generation. :galaxy-brain:
That's also a historical thing that needs to be looked at in it's cultural and historical context, which is the historical materialist way to analyze it tbh. We can't use "presentism" when looking at things in the past:
https://yaqeeninstitute.org/read/paper/understanding-aishas-age-an-interdisciplinary-approach
(CW: SV)
spoiler
Again, a 50 year old violated a single-digit-aged child.
If you're going to wave around the "materialist" totem word like some sort of :expert-shapiro: to justify that with sophistry, I'm done talking to you.
Your own source says this:
So, the Prophet’s marriage to Ayesha was nothing out of the ordinary for the time in which this marriage took place. Insisting on 21st century (Western) ideas on morality and marriage, which evolved in their own right, for a very different time and place is an ahistorical approach.
https://islamfyi.princeton.edu/is-it-true-that-muhammad-married-a-child-bride-by-the-name-of-ayesha-when-he-was-53-and-she-was-9-years-old-if-so-how-do-muslims-justify-this-from-their-exemplary-prophet/
I used a deliberately “generous” source that still admits that the event happened. I could have used a much more incendiary one, but I didn’t.
I didn't deny it, I just pointed out that even in that case it's still ahistorical to apply our modern standards to it, which even your source admits.
So to summarize you're fine with (CW: sexual violence
spoiler
a 50+ year old violating a 9 year old child bride
and are passionately defending that happening because it was accepted at its time. Fuck your "modern standards" sophistry. Even the excuses and apologia for that event go back centuries and you're continuing that apologia. What's wrong with you?
I said I was done with you but you made a parallel post, so I had to address that.
Just wanted to say you're right. "Culturally accepted" might help a person understand something, but it in no way excuses that thing. The whole modern conception of consent exists precisely because several generations of feminists critiqued what was culturally accepted until mainstream society finally realized that they were tacitly allowing some disgusting shit to happen and turned against it.
The two people in this thread that are Materialistically(tm) invested in culturally acceptable creeping on children certainly seem to be wanting to excuse anything that the ruling class does that they happen to have personal stakes in justifying and defending.
It's rich that the old French bougie in the OP isn't really creepy on the same level (as far as I know) but a 50+ year old that took a 9 year old child bride is the voluntary example given by the Materialists(tm) in this thread anyway, in advance.
Nick: what about a reverse Macron, but one of them is Chinese?
Stavros laugh
I am now ideologically opposed to the Chinese Communist Party.
Macron met his wife when he was 15. This woman met this man at the age of 18 at the very earliest (video is not precise).
Spoken french with both english and chinese subtitles is a really interesting experience when you speak all three languages
I'm jealous. How well to phrases from those languages translate to each other?
I'm definitely no linguist, and also not super fluent in all three. But from personal experience, english and french typically translate pretty well, as you might expect. They have pretty compatible structure overall, with some slight differences in verb-subject conjugation, object-adjective order, gendered nouns, etc. Chinese, on the other hand, is totally different from the other two. Verb tenses especially are quite strange, and it really takes a bit to internalize if you're coming from English or French.
I'm sure I could come up with a more illustrative example, but consider:
- English: "They went shopping, and will return in one hour."
- French: "Ils sont allés faire du shopping, et seront de retour dans une heure."
- Ils sont allés ("they went") faire du shopping ("shopping"), et seront de retour (~"and will return") dans une heure ("in one hour").
- Chinese (simplified): "他们去逛街了，一小时后回来”。
- 他们去 ("they go" - no tense distinction) 逛街 (lit. "walking the street", shopping)了，一小时后 ("one hour later") 回来 ("return" - no tense distinction)。
If you asked me to complete the headline "65-year old French artist..." I probably would have come up with something along these lines
:kombucha-disgust:
The French just doing French things again
:france-cool:
You think this relationship is yikes because the man is more than half the age of the woman.
I think this relationship is yikes because the mayo is probably a sexpat.
We are not the same.
the man is more than half the age of the woman.
the mayo is probably a sexpat.
:same-picture:
They met when she was 24 and he was 52, that's a bit weird, she could easily be his daughter. Apparently she was his translator at a Chinese art fair in 2010.
I guess if he doesn't have any children it's less weird, but I can't imagine having kids and introducing them to my new partner who's the same age or younger than my kids.
But your last sentence is the most important, so long as they're happy and going strong.
