https://libreddit.kavin.rocks/r/TheDeprogram/comments/11s7x4u/badempanada_uyhgers_video/
Found in the Deprogram sub's discussion ofnit which is quite good. Radio War Nerd also does this beating around the bush with Zenz's beliefs. To say nothing of Deprogram & RWN Russia takes,
Saying "actually both sides" or "the truth is somewhere in the middle" doesn't automatically mean there's nuance
Between "it's genocide" and "nothing morally objectionable is happening" the truth is somewhere in the middle, I understand China's policy in Xinjiang but I would prefer it were different
It's a program that impacts millions of people, there is going to be variance no matter what, and there would be "very concerned" people who just want "nuance" no matter what, because that variance that exists in reality will always produce at least some poor outcomes to handwring about and say you "prefer it were different", since nothing goes wrong in the ideal version they imagine in their head.
The bottom line is that China's program is worth supporting both for the people of Xinjiang who were being terrorized and for the stability of China as a whole, and the handwringing is functionally only thinly distinguished from concern trolling when one merely speaks in vagueries about "morally objectionable things happening".
If you have specific objections, name them. Otherwise, just move on instead of engaging in that absurd song and dance against imaginary dogmatists.
I would say the "possible" (I'm honestly not quite sure how widespread it is) sterilization that might've produced a massive drop in birth rate is one of them
And the other is the too broad institutionalization of people based on their activities, I know they're not just putting people in these institutions against their will because they are muslim, there has to be other criteria, but I find it hard to believe that everyone (or maybe even most) who passes through them actually was, or had a probability of becoming, a terrorist.
And generally I'm taking a "wait and see" approach, because intuitively I would say that this program won't actually end separatist terrorism (as US wars didn't end terrorism and increased it) because of the resentment it can provoke in people in Xinjiang who'll end up being radicalized, but there hasn't been an attack in a while so...
It's literally the "people's war on terror" and I'm not saying that as a criticism (even in a completely ideal socialist society there may be terrorism) but I do think some things can be done in the name of it that will go too far.
Regardless I'm only willing to discuss this in places like these, otherwise I'm careful not to play into anti-china propaganda
I totally put off responding to this but remembered it and wanted to mention to you that IUDs would be an incredibly stupid way to conduct a "sterilization" campaign, since it's meant to be a very temporary procedure and is thereby totally reversible. Historically we have seen what actual sterilization campaigns tend to look like (chemical castration of Ethiopians in Israel, hysterectomies on migrants in the US) and they are not the sort of thing where the victim could hypothetically go to anyone with training as a gynocologist and have it safely reversed in literally a few minutes.
It seems much more likely when one sees a large uptick in IUD insertions in a historically impoverished area where women have comparatively less autonomy to be things other than homemakers that perhaps this is something women are doing voluntarily as a product of recent development rather than due to compulsion.
I think you know that this is a really nebulous claim, but it's worth noting that these people weren't taken to Guantanamo Bay or even to a "prison" in a recognizable sense of the word. A segment of them were imprisoned in the literal sense of the word (though with freedom to return on weekends and keep contact with the outside world), but what they were doing wasn't breaking rocks in a quarry, it was receiving education and vocational training. For someone who was at-risk in part due to poverty or social insularity, these are not terrible things to spend a year on. Granted, that doesn't justify just rounding up people willy-nilly, but it makes "concerns" about not-at-risk people likewise require a little more substantiation.
Hey thanks for getting back to me anyway I appreciate it, your replies to me are in my inbox for easy access for when I have to provide counter-arguments to the genocide narrative.
Wait you believe the great replacement Uyghur sterilization theory
Lmfao this us exactly what I expect from everyone doing "nuance" - you assume there's something to the accusations of anticommunists who were paid to LIE
I don't believe that's the intention in any way nor that sterilization is that prevalent.
But I thought both the declining birth rate and the presence of sterilization were both acknowledged by the government at some point no? Back in 2019 before everybody started screaming genocide the government was a lot more open about this program. Goes to show how damaging the genocide narrative is.
I would honestly appreciate an answer and I don't mind if you just say you're not sure, that's at least more honest in my case
"Here's just one major piece of evidence, refuting the widely spread 'forced sterilization' claims that serve as the bedrock of the cultural genocide argument. In his report, Zenz states that 80% of IUD's in China were done in Xinjiang, writing: “In 2018, 80 percent of all new IUD placements in China were performed in Xinjiang, despite the fact that the region only makes up 1.8 percent of the nation’s population. In 2014, 2.5 percent of newly placed IUDs in China were fitted in Xinjiang. [38] In 2018, that share rose to 80 percent, far above Xinjiang’s 1.8 percent share of China’s population. [39]” Zenz gives the following Chinese primary source: “[38] Source: 2015 and 2019 Health and Hygiene Statistical Yearbooks, table 8-8-2.” But what does the yearbook actually say? Here's the actual 2019 Chinese Health and Hygiene Statistical Yearbook. It's quite a document, several hundred pages long. If you go through the slog of scrolling to page 228, you'll find Zenz's table 8-8-2 in the following page:
https://i.imgur.com/Zsi11eh.jpg
The relevant column is 放置节育器例数, the number of IUD's implanted. We have a total 总计 of 3.8 million, with Xinjiang 新疆 accounting for 328,475. Thus 8.7% of China's IUD's occurred in Xinjiang. A side note, but what really stands out about this table is not Xinjiang but Henan. In all of China, 86% of vasectomies and 26% of tubal litigations happened in Henan. Unlike IUD's, these are real sterilization procedures that cannot be reversed. It looks like the Chinese assistants helping Zenz mistakenly added a decimal. Either that or he’s just straight up lying - I’ll let you make your mind up on which you’d rather believe.
The 'falling birthrate' argument is also a bad faith spin on the fact that Xinjiang Uighurs only recently were placed under the same birthrate restrictions as the rest of China, where before ethnic minorities were allowed to have MORE children than the majority Han population (That article has a typical Western spin on it, but still) so yes, you could assume the birthrate has been dropping, but intentionally so and to suggest that it's some genocidal scheme to breed out the Uighurs is just patently silly. If you want to argue that the government dictating how many kids you can have is authoritarian overreach, that's fine, I'm not going to fight you on that whether I agree or not, but it IS applied across the board."
Sure but i'm lazy so i'm gonna walk home to paste a response from my laptop
Actually found gzd/sino links that pretty much cover everything https://r.nf/r/Sino/comments/kyccz3/uyghur_sterilization_allegation_debunked/ huge post
https://old.reddit.com/r/GenZedong/comments/lsaji0/masterpost_of_sources_for_debunking_xinjiang/
https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1193454.shtml GT investigation busts contraception lies in Xinjiang
The Global Times read the yearbooks of hygiene statistics, and found that the data on the removal of IUDs was not released every year, which raises the question as to how Zenz acquired the estimated number when no data was in his claimed source.
They're training these people to be realtors bro you need to look at the genzedong google doc like the Elder Scrolls