I'm honestly still skeptical about their commitment towards socialism and communism as a long-term end goal, but my stance is basically that I don't give a shit if they're socialist or communist or leftist or whatever, but that they have increasingly proven themselves to be a measurably better alternative to US global hegemony, which actually exists.
When they got involved in the middle east, they brokered an end to the war in Yemen, on favorable terms for Yemen (we'll see how it goes actually enforcing that arrangement over the coming years, but they did what the US never could, or even would).
They've been a positive force for development in several African countries through the Belt and Road initiative, and for all the crying about "debt-trap diplomacy", they've forgiven loans and always delivered on the promised construction.
They've done way the fuck more than other comparable nations to offset and correct the harm caused by climate change, reforesting man-made deserts, developing their renewable energy infrastructure, etc.
The best criticisms most people can give about China are either bullshit (the "Uyghur genocide" that neither the UN nor the majority of Muslim majority nations believe to be real, the aforementioned "debt traps" that never materialize), nirvana fallacy critiques that basically applies to every nation that actually exists in reality (like the hand-wringing over how they're only helping other nations to "curry favor"), or debate-bro wankery over how they don't actually count as socialist -- as though I'm supposed to be such a fucking crank that the label they slap on tangible achievement is supposed to me more important than the actual achievement!
Obviously there are real criticisms of China because it's a real country that actually exists, such as their really brutally strict immigration policy that doesn't even have any allowances for refugees (that came up in the recent thread about trump wanting to deport everybody), or that they're still kinda lame on LGBT stuff (supposedly getting better from younger generations coming into influence).
But they don't have to be perfect, they just have to be an improvement.
another EDIT: I'd like to add a point: they kill way more rich people than other countries (though the numbers are sometimes exaggerated). That sounds like a really crass thing to say, as though I'm just reveling in people I don't like being killed, but it genuinely signals that the capitalists do not own China like they do the rest of the world, because if they did, they wouldn't let themselves be killed so damn much! China holds them accountable to the law like everybody else.
undefined> another EDIT: I'd like to add a point: they kill way more rich people than other countries (though the numbers are sometimes exaggerated). That sounds like a really crass thing to say, as though I'm just reveling in people I don't like being killed, but it genuinely signals that the capitalists do not own China like they do the rest of the world, because if they did, they wouldn't let themselves be killed so damn much! China holds them accountable to the law like everybody else.
Ya I feel this - my thought in this regard has always been "I don't like the death penalty, but holding the capitalist elite to account in some way is better than not, even if I don't agree with the exact method." (And before someone comes after me for this, I do agree that ofc some amount of executions would be & have been politically necessary in a revolutionary scenario but I don't think that's exactly apples to apples).
I'm not sure where I stand on the death penalty either but I think the executions can be viewed as part of the ongoing class struggle
The point of killing capitalists is the fear that they will re-organize with their connections and remaining power and start a counterrevolution against the people. You can strip a capitalist of all their assets and capital but they will undoubtedly still have wealthy friends and a deep network. Perhaps executing capitalists that the CPC deems has deeply wronged the people is a necessity
That is totally possible, I could see a compelling argument for that. And again, I think it's far preferable to what we have in the West (let the elite run roughshod and shamelessly cater all of our social structures to their needs/allow them to dictate the nature of our social structures). There's simply a lot of context and nuance I really just don't have access to. I am also grateful to be some nobody and not the person who has to make these life or death policy decisions lol
The best criticisms most people can give about China are either bullshit (the "Uyghur genocide" that neither the UN nor the majority of Muslim majority nations believe to be real, the aforementioned "debt traps" that never materialize), nirvana fallacy critiques that basically applies to every nation that actually exists in reality (like the hand-wringing over how they're only helping other nations to "curry favor"), or debate-bro wankery over how they don't actually count as socialist -- as though I'm supposed to be such a fucking crank that the label they slap on tangible achievement is supposed to me more important than the actual achievement!
Obviously there are real criticisms of China because it's a real country that actually exists, such as their really brutally strict immigration policy that doesn't even have any allowances for refugees (that came up in the recent thread about trump wanting to deport everybody), or that they're still kinda lame on LGBT stuff (supposedly getting better from younger generations coming into influence).
But they don't have to be perfect, they just have to be an improvement.
This succinctly nails my main feelings.
When the site started, I probably hummed and hawed about State Capitalism, vaguely alluded to having problems with Deng / "Dengism" and joked about them never pressing the communism button.
After three more years of the accelerating death-cult of capitalism, my "critical support" of China has become less and less critical by the day because of the actual, tangible benefits to the working class that their system achieves while us anglos feed ourselves to the meatgrinder.
There will always be criticisms, because there can always be improvement or advances. But at this point, shitting on China is completely unnecessary.
I'm honestly still skeptical about their commitment towards socialism and communism as a long-term end goal, but my stance is basically that I don't give a shit if they're socialist or communist or leftist or whatever, but that they have increasingly proven themselves to be a measurably better alternative to US global hegemony, which actually exists.
When they got involved in the middle east, they brokered an end to the war in Yemen, on favorable terms for Yemen (we'll see how it goes actually enforcing that arrangement over the coming years, but they did what the US never could, or even would).
They've been a positive force for development in several African countries through the Belt and Road initiative, and for all the crying about "debt-trap diplomacy", they've forgiven loans and always delivered on the promised construction.
They've done way the fuck more than other comparable nations to offset and correct the harm caused by climate change, reforesting man-made deserts, developing their renewable energy infrastructure, etc.
The best criticisms most people can give about China are either bullshit (the "Uyghur genocide" that neither the UN nor the majority of Muslim majority nations believe to be real, the aforementioned "debt traps" that never materialize), nirvana fallacy critiques that basically applies to every nation that actually exists in reality (like the hand-wringing over how they're only helping other nations to "curry favor"), or debate-bro wankery over how they don't actually count as socialist -- as though I'm supposed to be such a fucking crank that the label they slap on tangible achievement is supposed to me more important than the actual achievement!
Obviously there are real criticisms of China because it's a real country that actually exists, such as their really brutally strict immigration policy that doesn't even have any allowances for refugees (that came up in the recent thread about trump wanting to deport everybody), or that they're still kinda lame on LGBT stuff (supposedly getting better from younger generations coming into influence).
But they don't have to be perfect, they just have to be an improvement.
another EDIT: I'd like to add a point: they kill way more rich people than other countries (though the numbers are sometimes exaggerated). That sounds like a really crass thing to say, as though I'm just reveling in people I don't like being killed, but it genuinely signals that the capitalists do not own China like they do the rest of the world, because if they did, they wouldn't let themselves be killed so damn much! China holds them accountable to the law like everybody else.
undefined> another EDIT: I'd like to add a point: they kill way more rich people than other countries (though the numbers are sometimes exaggerated). That sounds like a really crass thing to say, as though I'm just reveling in people I don't like being killed, but it genuinely signals that the capitalists do not own China like they do the rest of the world, because if they did, they wouldn't let themselves be killed so damn much! China holds them accountable to the law like everybody else.
Ya I feel this - my thought in this regard has always been "I don't like the death penalty, but holding the capitalist elite to account in some way is better than not, even if I don't agree with the exact method." (And before someone comes after me for this, I do agree that ofc some amount of executions would be & have been politically necessary in a revolutionary scenario but I don't think that's exactly apples to apples).
I'm not sure where I stand on the death penalty either but I think the executions can be viewed as part of the ongoing class struggle
The point of killing capitalists is the fear that they will re-organize with their connections and remaining power and start a counterrevolution against the people. You can strip a capitalist of all their assets and capital but they will undoubtedly still have wealthy friends and a deep network. Perhaps executing capitalists that the CPC deems has deeply wronged the people is a necessity
That is totally possible, I could see a compelling argument for that. And again, I think it's far preferable to what we have in the West (let the elite run roughshod and shamelessly cater all of our social structures to their needs/allow them to dictate the nature of our social structures). There's simply a lot of context and nuance I really just don't have access to. I am also grateful to be some nobody and not the person who has to make these life or death policy decisions lol
This succinctly nails my main feelings.
When the site started, I probably hummed and hawed about State Capitalism, vaguely alluded to having problems with Deng / "Dengism" and joked about them never pressing the communism button.
After three more years of the accelerating death-cult of capitalism, my "critical support" of China has become less and less critical by the day because of the actual, tangible benefits to the working class that their system achieves while us anglos feed ourselves to the meatgrinder.
There will always be criticisms, because there can always be improvement or advances. But at this point, shitting on China is completely unnecessary.