Jesus christ, this site just goes completely downhill when anything philosophical is involved.
We aren’t talking about the physical stimulus itself! We are talking about subjective internal experience! Just because the same area of the brain correlates to a specific color or whatever doesn’t mean you experience the same thing. Hard problem of consciousness
Not even taking into consideration the STEMlord hurr-durr philosophy is useless takes.
Once again for emphasis:
THE STIMULUS IS NOT THE SAME THING AS YOUR EXPERIENCE OF IT
People may very well experience the same color differently, and we would have no way of knowing. There will always be a subjective gap that can’t be bridged. We see the same wavelength but we cannot know if we experience it the same way. Color theory and the physics of light is completely irrelevant here.
It’s not that you see red as blue; you see blue as blue, that’s not the argument here. Everyone sees blue as blue. We just might not have the same subjective experience of it. This is like baby level philosophy shit, I would have thought it would be quite simple to understand.
I completely agree with you that the internal stuff matters. However so often people say that people might experience red as blue or something like that which is a bad thing to say (and I hear often, and it is bad for multiple reasons, but especially that it shines the spot light away from the interesting bit which you focused on rightfully and introduces some tackled web to uncurl).
That said the physiology of bodies means and how light interacts with them means that two colours couldn't arbitrarily be switched in their internal mechanic. Cause they would be different experiences for the sensors our body got. Which sometimes gets ignored by some people engaging in philosophy who don't care about physical bodies and are too idealist and non-materialist.
i dont think you are engaging with the actual thinking going on and instead are being like "but what about the fact that we can never truly know anyone else!!!" it's easy to understand. light is a phenomena that is pretty well explained in physics and with other "philosophical" or logical evidence. we're not all seeing different shit even if it's interesting to think about
I had a terrible night’s sleep so I’m gonna be grumpy here
Read my comment again. It is literally not possible to prove this either way, that’s the whole point.
Yes, you are seeing the exact same wavelength as everyone else. No, this has nothing to do with the argument. No amount of incessantly pointing to the physics of the stimulus is going to resolve the question.
I don’t think you understand that this has literally nothing to do with the physics of light. It’s honestly amazing that you point to this even after the countless clarifications that that is not the point of the discussion. No one is questioning the physics of light. We could perfectly well be seeing different shit. Consciousness and subjective experience, one of the greatest enigmas to this day, it’s anything but understood. Color is just a proxy for this discussion. You could make it about sound or pain or basically anything.the question is “do we have the same sensory experience for the same stimulus”? You can explain the physics of light every step of the way and it wouldn’t even touch on subjective experience.
In summary:
Is the physics of light well understood?
Yes.
Are our eyes physically structured basically identically?
Yes.
Is the stimulus, physically speaking, a constant for both observers?
Yes.
Are the physical properties of the light hitting the retina the same for both?
Yes.
Is our internal sensory perception universal?
I don’t know, and if you do, you should get it published and live off the coattails of one of the greatest achievements in scientific history for the rest of your life.
I didn’t know we were relitigating this, but this is a philosophical concept that is related to physics but which cannot be explained by it, not because of anything supernatural, but because that’s how language works
Jesus christ, this site just goes completely downhill when anything philosophical is involved.
We aren’t talking about the physical stimulus itself! We are talking about subjective internal experience! Just because the same area of the brain correlates to a specific color or whatever doesn’t mean you experience the same thing. Hard problem of consciousness
Not even taking into consideration the STEMlord hurr-durr philosophy is useless takes.
Once again for emphasis:
THE STIMULUS IS NOT THE SAME THING AS YOUR EXPERIENCE OF IT
People may very well experience the same color differently, and we would have no way of knowing. There will always be a subjective gap that can’t be bridged. We see the same wavelength but we cannot know if we experience it the same way. Color theory and the physics of light is completely irrelevant here.
It’s not that you see red as blue; you see blue as blue, that’s not the argument here. Everyone sees blue as blue. We just might not have the same subjective experience of it. This is like baby level philosophy shit, I would have thought it would be quite simple to understand.
sadly very true
deleted by creator
And where did that bring you? Back to me.
I completely agree with you that the internal stuff matters. However so often people say that people might experience red as blue or something like that which is a bad thing to say (and I hear often, and it is bad for multiple reasons, but especially that it shines the spot light away from the interesting bit which you focused on rightfully and introduces some tackled web to uncurl).
That said the physiology of bodies means and how light interacts with them means that two colours couldn't arbitrarily be switched in their internal mechanic. Cause they would be different experiences for the sensors our body got. Which sometimes gets ignored by some people engaging in philosophy who don't care about physical bodies and are too idealist and non-materialist.
You pointed to the correct thing though.
Yeah the original tweet makes sense. I don't get why this is a dunk
Got a lot of STEMlord-brained dum dums in this thread...
i dont think you are engaging with the actual thinking going on and instead are being like "but what about the fact that we can never truly know anyone else!!!" it's easy to understand. light is a phenomena that is pretty well explained in physics and with other "philosophical" or logical evidence. we're not all seeing different shit even if it's interesting to think about
I had a terrible night’s sleep so I’m gonna be grumpy here
Read my comment again. It is literally not possible to prove this either way, that’s the whole point.
Yes, you are seeing the exact same wavelength as everyone else. No, this has nothing to do with the argument. No amount of incessantly pointing to the physics of the stimulus is going to resolve the question.
I don’t think you understand that this has literally nothing to do with the physics of light. It’s honestly amazing that you point to this even after the countless clarifications that that is not the point of the discussion. No one is questioning the physics of light. We could perfectly well be seeing different shit. Consciousness and subjective experience, one of the greatest enigmas to this day, it’s anything but understood. Color is just a proxy for this discussion. You could make it about sound or pain or basically anything.the question is “do we have the same sensory experience for the same stimulus”? You can explain the physics of light every step of the way and it wouldn’t even touch on subjective experience.
In summary:
Yes.
Are our eyes physically structured basically identically?
Yes.
Is the stimulus, physically speaking, a constant for both observers?
Yes.
Are the physical properties of the light hitting the retina the same for both?
Yes.
Is our internal sensory perception universal?
I don’t know, and if you do, you should get it published and live off the coattails of one of the greatest achievements in scientific history for the rest of your life.
da physics of the eye is also da same and our brains are all built roughly the same so whateva
Removed by mod
I didn’t know we were relitigating this, but this is a philosophical concept that is related to physics but which cannot be explained by it, not because of anything supernatural, but because that’s how language works
If we perceive senses the same way, why do some people disagree about what colors go together or if something tastes good?
If the internal experience of the sense is the same, why would anyone have different tastes?
When people like different things, is it entirely arbitrary? Or is it because they perceive the internal sensation differently?
Boba Kiki test
colors could be tested the same way, just latch a brain helmet on and see how they react when seeing red/blue etc