Being duped into hating your fellow in the proletariat and seeing killing them to "protect your nation" is very easy to do in times of war, and people there, from the communists-in-hiding to the Nazi bozos Sieg-heiling on the frontlines get to experience the horrors of war.
Many can't deal with it and go abroad to a safer haven.
Here, you have not just thousands - millions of Bozos for whom you are also merely an instrument for advancing that state's interests. Be it working at shit jobs for shit-euro-pay or getting sent back to die in a WW1-Style-trench. Who hate you if you are too much of a loser to fulfill their ever rising demands, who hate you if you dare existing too obviously.
The Europeans eagerly march into the same hatred as above, millions supporting the military, Sabre-rattling, even open warfare! All to show strength, even if it causes WW3!
Willing to FUCKING DIE for the nation, for its interests, economic and/or political, to own the evil barbarians (the same is highly likely to be said in Russia)
Proletarian Internationalism? But have you considered everyone but me us (and they say humans are selfish by nature) is morally evil!
And anger against all this doesn't seem to be going anywhere, just into people who are considered better managers of nationalism - the fash.
I empathize with Ukrainians. Not their nationalists.
They can all die in their pathetic war for all I care
Unfortunately wars tend to draw people in that don't want to do anything with it.
Like 90% of the population is probably nationalistic (in every bourgeois country!), and it doesn't matter at all if it's fascist, flag-saluting kind or your average democratic patriot (which is just a more acceptable way of saying nationalist).
It's hilariously isolating to become aware of that fact.
I’d be careful with statements like this.
I have unfortunately (and accidentally) came across videos of people tortured and murdered by the Azovs before the war started. It’s been going on for years and the whole society pretended like nothing had happened. None of those murderers were ever prosecuted, but were instead celebrated on state media as “heroes of Ukraine”.
While we cannot blame the whole society for being complicit, let’s not pretend like your average Germans didn’t know about Jews being persecuted and murdered during the Nazi regime, and that many were fine with it.
let’s not pretend like your average Germans didn’t know about Jews being persecuted and murdered during the Nazi regime, and that many were fine with it.
Germans in 1945 be like "No we don't know what happened to our Jewish neighbor, yes we immediately took their house and farm, don't ask us if those are connected"
I doubt the "not knowing" thing was even actually common back then. It feels more like a bullshit narrative that got invented by nationalists that got accepted by liberals too to avoid personal negative consequences.
Italy for example had people going "Mussolini was good actually" people from the start and they were never punished - though those wanting fascist rule were unpopular, since most simply supported the Christian democrats. After all, they fulfilled what they wanted anyway - have a stable and well-run capitalist state that repressed anticapitalist dissent and protected their class interest through means like class collaborationism.
I doubt the "not knowing" thing was even actually common back then.
They knew. They all fucking knew.
I'm not excusing them in any way. I'm condemning the democratic nationalists too - in General. When the war drums beat, both the thugs with swastikas and the libs with broccoli haircuts are eager to jump in and kill for the country.
I’m not saying this is what you’re doing, since I assume you’re posting in good faith, but this is exactly where the clean Wehrmacht myth comes from.
I hate the state and the army.
The clean Wehrmacht stuff was created to justify why militarism was supposedly necessary in 50s West Germany and a "We're good actually." moralistic cope. The same way random Nazi collaborators from WW2 (or even fucking Genghis Khan in Mongolia) are praised in former Soviet states.
Reprehensible, and its goal is even worse. Plus, it has the "neat" side effect of being very helpful of making people who like, or at least not hate, the state rabidly anticommunist.
Soldiers are almost certain to be fanatically nationalistic, so I'm not trusting any of them to not be that anytime soon. I still feel regret those people have been led to being what they became.
I sure as shit wouldnt be nationalistic if i were dragged into a van by the state only to get fragged by russian artillery
Which is why I'm hoping anger is building up in Ukraine (ideally towards something constructive). My bigger frustration is with local supporters of the state here.
If I was forced to fight in a suicidal war I wanted no part in, do you know what I would do?
First chance I got, I would point the gun in the direction of the people who put me in that position and pull the trigger.
Anyone incapable of doing so enables pointless bloodshed. If you're incapable of standing up for yourself, why would I trust you to stand up for others? Let them die.
"Why don't they fight back if they hate it so much? Cowards can fuck off and die for all I care" - libs about Russians or Syrians.
Accepting your death by adventurism is not exactly common - just as fragging your superior officer in Vietnam wasn't - even if Revolution to overthrow the government for socialism and ending the war is the only solution that doesn't keep humanity in a dead end.
You don’t even need to do that really. The Ukrainians are routinely engaging in unorganized retreats. In the middle of chaos just start making your way to the border or surrender to the Russians as a POW. Shooting is just going to get you killed for no real reason. You could also escape and then join up with the Russians if they’d have you, but who knows.
I support the Russian nationalists and I hope Ukraine no longer exists as a concept by the end of this war
It was fun laughing at the nazis starving to death in Mariupol basements but for the last year and a halfish its been pretty grim.
That's probably partly because the real committed Nazis got chewed up in the first year or so and now we're watching people die who were just not lucky or rich enough to flee.
Yeah after they figured out they can't win a modern war through pure Triumph des Willens, their switch to competing with the ww1 French for who can have the biggest charnel house of the year has been indeed grim
I understand the sentiment, but you really don’t have to hand it to the Ukrainian nationalists either. I’ve said it before and I’ve said it again. If you do not want to die by Russian artillery, then you’d better figure out a way to go AWOL or surrender to the Russians. If all you’re gonna do is go to the next defendable position then you’re just an obstacle in the way.
The only ones I could maybe feel the tiniest bit of sympathy for are the young ones. I saw a 19 year old azov fighter killed this year. He would've been like 10 when Maidan happened and was probably put into one of those Hitler youth programs. Like that kid never had a chance to be anything else.
I have empathy for Ukrainians except for the Banderites and Nazis. Their country became a vassal of the US because of a coup, now they're being forced to die because the West is willing to sacrifice them for some pathetic attempt to get one over on Russia, which isn't even working.
"Their country"
What if that was exactly my problem? Russia, Ukraine, Germany, United States, whatever. Liberal states always end upfighting each other (militarily or peacefully - economically, whatever!) and throwing people into the meat grinder - it's depressing.
300 * 0 = 0. I sympathize for everyday Ukrainians and Russians alike. Both being dragged into a war no one asked for.
That being said, seeing how popular nazism and war is in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if they are the ringleaders of it all. Western culture seems to view war as a big sporting event and not a horrible tragedy that sometimes has to happen in self-defense at its best, or should be avoided at all costs most of the time.
They have a moral duty to die fighting their own country than fighting the russian
I know a few folks from Ukraine and all of them just want it to be over. They never wanted to fight and they still don't. So yeah for them I definitely have empathy. It sucks being in war.
For the sake of women everywhere, rape culture needs to die. By execution if necessary.
I have no empathy.