- cross-posted to:
- latestagecapitalism@lemmygrad.ml
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South Korean incels are on another level of misogyny, partially brought on by a historical tradition of patriarchy combined with rapidly moving women into the work force.
Women in South Korea are generally far more progressive as a consequence, and men have not been able to keep up with this as a whole. Instead, they are even more reactionary, it's a magnified version of what exists in countries like America.
Everything I've heard about patriarchy in SK makes it sound like absolute hell. What's that maybe exists maybe not movement where women are essentially doing 70s feminist secession from men? I've heard a bit about it and some of the interviews with women about the shit they go through are harrowing.
NATOpedai: 4B movement
4B (or "Four Nos") is a feminist movement whose proponents refuse to 1) date men, 2) get married, 3) have sex with men, or 4) have children.
To add
The movement has approximately 3,400 members on Naver
Pretty damn small to boot
Yeah Americans love to say things like “the population decline in South Korea is because of the 4b movement” when it’s not a big thing at all. It drives me crazy. It’s just buying into right wing propaganda about population decline.
Yeah, my understanding is it's one of those things where the line between an actual movement, a symbolic expression of rage, and right wing fearmongering is hard to draw.
One notable feature of the 4B movement, as with other Korean digital feminist movements, is that members often identify themselves as "anonymous women," as it is conventional not to disclose personal details online.[
Korea "fem-anon" language to distinguish from just "anon" (assumed male) amuses me.
When I was on
, I'd argue every day with the "Men's Rights Activists" on the circumcision subreddits. It would range from dishonest shit like "most doctors doing circumcision are women" to really unfair attacks like "why aren't feminists protesting about male suicide" (answer: because MRAs are fucking assholes and feminists have their own problems). In the end, it was those guys that drove me out of Reddit for good.I was just super embarrassed, because any normal person would see their conversations and think that anti-circumcision people were massive turds.
I don't get that one about protesting. Why aren't MEN protesting about male suicide rates? I've never even heard of one protest in regards to it.
It reminds me of the line racists use about the black community. "Why don't black people do anything about black on black violence?" And that one is easy because.... they have and are. They protest. They form community action groups. They pressure local governments. They speak out. There is so much movement in black communities across America to address poverty, violence, education and more. White people just don't see it or hear about it because the media does not care and does not show their efforts but it is there.
Never identified as an MRA but, having dipped my toe into the waters on that shit a bit, straight up I honestly genuinely unironically think they don't actually give a shit about male suicide rates or "men" in general at all. They are for one reason or another as a whole: deeply selfish bitter reactionary people who don't care about community and they are basically cosplaying like they have one.
And really that isn't surprising because the truth is that if you actually ARE serious about digging into and addressing any of the grievances they claim to be concerned with you will actually start to realize that essentially ALL of them are symptoms of cis white male patriarchy under capitalism. Take family court for example. Half of MRAs probably think there's some kind of feminist cabal out to persecute fathers but the degree to which family court favors mothers (if at all) is the result of: 1: Old crusty white male judges who decided centuries ago that a woman's role is to be nurturer and a father's role is to work a job. 2: The reality that men are in general not conditioned to build and maintain support networks through friends and family which in turn makes the logistics of childcare more difficult.
I was there when the men's rights subreddit was created. It was actually posted about and promoted in the socialism reddit for like a week. That's about as long as it took to become reactionary. The first few days there were a lot of feminists there ready to address men's issues and evaluated it just like this. They were all pushed out quickly. It's almost a case study how that community formed and developed.
Ultimately you are right, though. There is so much about it that is steeped in patriarchy and are issues that women are fed up with, too. I think feminism has a place for men's issues because feminism is a way to tackle human issues and that space could have been a great place to spread that. It seemed it might have been for a day or two even. But the reactionary elements of the MRA movement are either deaf to it or actively undermining it.
I don't get that one about protesting. Why aren't MEN protesting about male suicide rates? I've never even heard of one protest in regards to it.
I mean the why here is the same reason for why male suicide rates are so high. The shame and social stigma associated with it.
I know this isn't you but imagine them saying this. "We want to change the social stigma around this and bring attention to it but we never protest or demonstrate about it." Uh, then you don't care.
Leave it to men on reddit to pivot the conversation from “why circumcision is bad” to “evil women think circumcisions aren’t enough!”
Laughable fuckheads.
Therapy fuckin sucks, blaming women obviously isn’t the solution though.
Therapy helps plenty of people, but to each their own. The point still stands that blaming other people for your depression and subsequent refusal to treat it is not okay.
Therapy is one very distinct and expensive form of treating depression. As I said if depression is being caused by an environment that can be difficult for people to change.
First off cw for discussion of suicide
Shameful behavior. It's a combination of capitalist exploitation and the fact that men are more likely than women to choose more radical and violent methods of committing suicide which have higher rates of success.
Additionally if you didn't know, women in Korea have historically been at higher risk of suicide than men are due to the very patriarchal culture in place in addition to the entrance of women into the workplace adding additional labor unto their already existing plate.
https://www.hani.co.kr/arti/society/society_general/969898.html#cb
men are more likely than women to choose more radical and violent methods of committing suicide
Struggle session: Is this an effect of socialisation or are men biologically more violent?
Hmm ima say bit of both but the former magnifies by multiple levels of magnitude the latter
CW: Suicide
Men are more likely to own a firearm then woman (in America).
And firearms account for more then half of all suicides.
However, it's very likely that twice as many woman make attempts then men.
Based on the most recent Youth Risk Behaviors Survey from 2021 (most recent results), 10.0% of youth in grades 9-12 reported that they had made at least one suicide attempt in the past 12 months. Female students attempted 1.86 times as often as male students (13% vs. 7%). American Indian or Alaska Native students reported the highest rate of attempt (16%) with white students at 9%. Approximately 3% of all students reported making a suicide attempt that required treatment by a doctor or nurse.
So, men, to put it coldly are more efficient at the task, thanks to their more likely access to more effective methods.
In the absence of these facts one might look at the rates for men and conclude something disproportionate is happening to men. The reality paints a different picture.
critical support to South Korean women in their war against South Korean men
uncritical support to South Korean women in their war against South Korean men
Councillor Kim, from the Democratic Party, arrived at his assessment when analysing data on the number of suicide attempts made at bridges along Seoul’s Han river.
Touche for a Democrat to use pseudoscience to promote bigotry.
begun to change into a female-dominant society
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA
Outside of islamic states Korea is the most male dominated society in the world.
I think for some people, going from 200% patriarchy to 99% patriarchy means "female dominated".
Maybe don't create a society that treats women like trash, normalizes workplace SA, has workers grinding themselves to death for their bosses, and also fires people if they don't exhibit acceptable workplace alcoholism (being coerced to go a drink every night with your bosses for a chance to moving up the corporate ladder).
Kim Jong Un, my people yearn for freedom from {insert perpetual condition of the Adam Friedland show's predecessor} of Hell Joseon...
At least, pls send us a nuke on our land and ye shall take away our suffering...
- Love, Mr. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar
Capitalist Korea looking at Japan's social and population collapse:
"Hey hold my sochu."
I'm not sure if this is progress or regress from blaming electric fans
