Some time ago I read an interview between H.G. Wells and Stalin, when Wells visited Soviet union for a short while in July of 1934.

They discuss a lot of topics in the interview - Roosevelt and New Deal, rise of fascism, class struggle in Britain, decay and crisis of capitalism, revolution and reformism, the PMC position in the class struggle (referred as inteligentsia and engineers), role of the state in capitalism, planned economy and others.

What I found interesting is how many of Wells arguments are really similar to the arguments of various current liberal activists, sympathizers or politicians.

To be fair to Wells, from the interview he striked me as someone to the left of current mainstream social democrats. Like an utopian socialist of sorts, who wants a socialistic economy, just doesn't really know or has thought about how to get there. And I also kinda think that he revised some of his views after this.

The whole interview is around 20-30 minute read.

So here are some of Wells' arguments:

1. Marxism and class analysis is too simplistic

"I object to this simplified classification of mankind into poor and rich."

"During the past few years I have been much engaged in and have thought of the need for conducting propaganda in favour of socialism and cosmopolitanism among wide circles of engineers, airmen, military technical people, etc. It is useless to approach these circles with two-track class war propaganda. These people understand the condition of the world. They understand that it is a bloody muddle, but they regard your simple class-war antagonism as nonsense."

This one is an absolute classic.

2. Yeah some capitalists are bad, but look at Elon or Bill, they are good, no?

"But there are very different kinds of capitalists. There are capitalists who only think about profit, about getting rich; but there are also those who are prepared to make sacrifices. Take old Morgan for example. He only thought about profit; he was a parasite on society, simply, he merely accumulated wealth. But take Rockefeller. He is a brilliant organiser; he has set an example of how to organise the delivery of oil that is worthy of emulation. Or take Ford. Of course Ford is selfish. But is he not a passionate organiser of rationalised production from whom you take lessons?"

The examples of Ford and Rockefeller are really a cherry on top of this.

3. Can you crazy Bernie Stalin bros stop with your violence and revolution talk, that's all in the past, in this modern world there is no more need for any violence

"I watch communist propaganda in the West and it seems to me that in modern conditions this propaganda sounds very old-fashioned, because it is insurrectionary propaganda. Propaganda in favour of the violent overthrow of the social system was all very well when it was directed against tyranny. But under modern conditions, when the system is collapsing anyhow, stress should be laid on efficiency, on competence, on productiveness, and not on insurrection.

It seems to me that the insurrectionary note is obsolete. The communist propaganda in the West is a nuisance to constructive-minded people."

Of course this is said only around 15 years after Russian revolution and a couple weeks after the Night of the long knives.

4. We gotta respect our constitutions

"Cromwell acted on the basis of the constitution and in the name of constitutional order."

Stalin's reply: "In the name of the constitution he resorted to violence, beheaded the king, dispersed Parliament, arrested some and beheaded others!"

5. How should we deal with fascism? Just call the cops. Can I speak to the manager of fasces??

Stalin: "Fascism is a reactionary force which is trying to preserve the old system by means of violence. What will you do with the fascists? Argue with them? Try to convince them? But this will have no effect upon them at all. Communists do not in the least idealise the methods of violence. But they, the Communists, do not want to be taken by surprise, they cannot count on the old world voluntarily departing from the stage, they see that the old system is violently defending itself, and that is why the Communists say to the working class : Answer violence with violence; do all you can to prevent the old dying order from crushing you, do not permit it to put manacles on your hands, on the hands with which you will overthrow the old system. As you see, the Communists regard the substitution of one social system for another, not simply as a spontaneous and peaceful process, but as a complicated, long and violent process. Communists cannot ignore facts."

Wells: "But look at what is now going on in the capitalist world. The collapse is not a simple one; it is the outbreak of reactionary violence which is degenerating to gangsterism. And it seems to me that when it comes to a conflict with reactionary and unintelligent violence, socialists can appeal to the law, and instead of regarding the police as the enemy they should support them in the fight against the reactionaries. I think that it is useless operating with the methods of the old insurrectionary socialism."

6. Respect the order and the norms

" I do not deny that force has to be used, but I think the forms of the struggle should fit as closely as possible to the opportunities presented by the existing laws, which must be defended against reactionary attacks. There is no need to disorganise the old system because it is disorganising itself enough as it is. That is why it seems to me insurrection against the old order, against the law, is obsolete; old-fashioned. Incidentally, I deliberately exaggerate in order to bring the truth out more clearly. I can formulate my point of view in the following way :

first, I am for order; second, I attack the present system in so far as it cannot assure order; third, I think that class war propaganda may detach from socialism just those educated people whom socialism needs."

Bonus round: Calling Stalin a lib

"Under these circumstances, it seems to me, we must not bring to the forefront the antagonism between the two worlds, but should strive to combine all the constructive movements, all the constructive forces in one line as much as possible. It seems to me that I am more to the Left than you, Mr. Stalin; I think the old system is nearer to its end than you think."