Timing the start of something is not a simple process. Punishing people for being late disproportionately impacts poor and disabled people. Not all of us can drive a car or even have a car to drive. We might have to wait on other people, or use public transportation, and the more steps we add to the process the more likely something is to go wrong. Punishing people for being late is systematic oppression towards these groups. This punishment can include starting without people, especially if that itself is framed as a punishment.
“Let the late ones be late and miss out (they can read the minutes), and reward the prompt ones by not wasting their time”
From the rusty's rules of order, something the IWW uses to organize. They are ableist.
On the other hand, waiting too long to start can impact people with limited time or energy. Not everyone can stay awake an extra hour just to wait for something to start.
This means that there is not one singular solution for how to start things (although obviously don’t do punishment). In small groups the best solution is to talk things over with everyone and get an idea for what everyone wants to happen, what can go wrong, and plans to mitigate any potential issues. If public transportation is running late, maybe someone with a car can go pick you up.
For large groups, most things do not need a strict starting time. If it is a large group and it requires strict attendance then you brought hierarchy into it long ago and ableism and such was always the conclusion you were going to get anyways.
I think there is an unspoken (and in my opinion fairly reasonable) assumption that punctuality is an indication of how much someone respects/values yours' or others' time. While it is obviously situational about how important that is in a given circumstance it is not clear to me why a group would structure to prioritize the people who are least invested or least able to participate in said group.
I am not advocating punishment or trying to be a jerk, but including starting without people who are late as punishment seems extreme and pretty impractical for any organization.
Kind of true, but in those cases where you're going to need accessibility adjustments, inform the organiser, and ask if a comrade can audio record the parts you miss if it means that much.
It does suck that public transport can fuck you over, and sometimes you can't do anything about it. I think often you sort of can, but when you can't, I've found people pretty forgiving as long as I've made them aware and my lateness doesn't impede the groups progress.
I think the answer is giving access to the missed material to late people instead of saying 'fuck them'. The answer is not loose start times, because people only have so much time. A well oiled event is important. A poorly organised one can be an absolute nightmare.
Hard agree. I think people just want to see that an effort is being made, even if it's not necessarily "fair" that you have to make the effort.
I have sleep apnea and am basically dead to the world if I don't use my machine every night. I didn't ask for this and it's not fair that I have to manage it, but I still recognize it's my responsibility to do so.
If my machine has an issue one night and I can't focus at a collaborative event the next day, I think people should be understanding. If my machine broke last week and haven't put any effort into fixing it, getting it repaired, finding a replacement, or finding some kind of stopgap solution, I would expect people to be rightfully annoyed that I'm not doing anything to fix the problem now that it's a known factor.
Using public transport has meant I tend to arrive between 10 minutes to an hour early :/ But also means the limits on my time are more rigid;I can't hang around until late waiting for something because the I'll miss the last bus or have to wait an extra two hours or something.
Also, if something will take 5 minutes (say, moving a couch from one part of the house to another), having a 2 hour window where I'm sitting around waiting for someone to show up sucks. It's not that my time is more important, it's that my time isn't 30 times less important either.
Idk if it's ablest, I seem to have gotten the audhd where I'm extremely punctual to the point of self sacrifice, but all my friends got the one where they always arrive two hours late to everything. I always feel like I'm the one compromising.
No idea what to do. My brain is fried
things can be done with a smaller group of people that aren't a punishment for the person arriving late, I do not mean to say nothing should happen. What I'm saying is if something rigidly requires the participation of everyone it should be reworked so that it does not.
I am in the same boat with public transportation, and what I do is things with a smaller group that the people arriving wouldn't want to participate in in the first place. Punishing people for arriving early is just as harmful as punishing people for arriving late, I did not mention it because I do not see people advocate for that specifically.
waiting for people definitely does suck, and I know the feeling about being the one always compromising.
I don't know about punishment, but I can certainly understand the frustration if you're time poor.
My chosen social groups of hippies and goths are sometimes frustrated by me arriving early or on time, but not to the point of uninviting me to stuff or yelling at me.
As a punk, I know shows start on punk time which is at least an hour and a half after whenever the flyer says and everyone is a half hour late to everything at least.
Couldn't it be equally argued that not running things on a consistent and regular schedule is also bad for poor and disabled people?
When I was poor things running late, or on weird and unreliable schedules probably put me in more shitty situations than things being kept on a strict and easy to understand time table I could schedule myself around.
yes, which is why I am advocating for systems that can be flexible and do not require everyone to do there for things to happen
Choose someone who is pretty much never late. If they are, the system won't work, but no system has a 100% success rate, take the occasional L and move on
vent: i've dealt with severe untreated ADHD (with time blindness as symptom) for years, and while i'm overall much better at punctuality now, it took a couple years of therapy, lifestyle changes, and systems (and more recently meds). i've long been well aware this is something i struggle with that 'normal' people with an infinitely less chaotic brain simply see as "not caring enough" or "not trying hard enough." same way i was told growing up, "if it was important to you, you would've remembered." that's true for them; they only know how their own brains work, they don't got a clue what it's like to be flat out incapable of prioritizing their thoughts
i was late often in elementary, like half of middle school, and most mornings of high school. i was never carefree about it; i had racing anxiety from it every time and somehow still constantly did it to myself. my first year at uni i skipped a fuck ton of lectures, even after walking all the way there, solely because i was too embarrassed to walk in late for the 20th time. i isolated myself and rejected invitations largely because i was afraid i'd make people feel i didn't value their time
ADHD isn't just some quirky personality thing most NTs think it is. ADHD made me skip meals nearly daily because i either forgot to eat or i'd put off cooking because it was just another painful chore. ADHD made me get 0-5 hours of sleep on a regular basis because my brain would not quiet down until i collapsed
tbh i often wish i could see a neurotypical live with my brain chemistry for a day, i bet they'd have a breakdown alone from the 2-3 inner monologues and nonstop earworm all on top of each other at every waking moment lmao
Punishing people for being late disproportionately impacts poor and disabled people. ... We might have to wait on other people, or use public transportation, and the more steps we add to the process the more likely something is to go wrong
Most people wouldn't get upset with you if your bus was late or some other unforeseen accident occurred.
This punishment can include starting without people, especially if that itself is framed as a punishment.
Punishment as opposed to what? If 4 people arrive on time and one person is 30 minutes late then you can either "punish" 1 person by starting on time or "punish" the four by making them wait. This doesn't even include people who just may not show up at all.
In small groups the best solution is to talk things over with everyone and get an idea for what everyone wants to happen, what can go wrong, and plans to mitigate any potential issues.
You're asking the entire group to take responsibility for getting someone there which is unreasonable. Having someone pick them up doesn't mean they'll be ready to go. Once they get used to being picked up, you'll be back in the same spot. If someone is incapable of managing time, not a moral judgement, then there is nothing other people can do to force them out the door.
For large groups, most things do not need a strict starting time.
Most things do actually need strict starting times. If you have more than one event/obligation in one day then it's damn near impossible to get to everything on time if you can't know when they start.
If it is a large group and it requires strict attendance then you brought hierarchy into it long ago and ableism
I have autism, I need a set schedule to function. The kind of wishy-washy with time system you describe would be hell for me. Hierarchy removes the uncertainty in making decisions and I find it easier to work in non-arbitrary environments. I understand your perspective, please try to understand mine.
At the end of the day, we "punish" less people by just sticking with a set time. I get that this system is worse for you but it benefits more people as a whole including other ND people. If you're consistently 30 minutes late, just plan to arrive 30 minutes early. If you think its reasonable for everyone else in your group wait on you, surely it would be acceptable for just you to wait. At the very least don't get upset when everyone else decides to just go.
I have autism, I need a set schedule to function. The kind of wishy-washy with time system you describe would be hell for me.
Having autism AND add/adhd is indeed hell. Needing to live on a set schedule while using a wishy-washy time system.
Anyone late to an action should be considered captured or compromised.
I'm glad I'm from a somewhat polychronic culture, so even if we expect people to be on time, the definition of "on time" is definitely not the
one.I've found the whitest people are the ones most upset about exact punctuality, while people from Latin America or Sub-Saharan Africa still care about it, but perceive it differently.
I’m late all the time and it’s the ND people in my life getting most mad at me for it lol
