One of Tolkien's letters describes orcs as“squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types.”
And I was thinking about, 1.) Look at the legs on these Mongolian wrestlers all decked out for a major national wrestling festival, and also 2.) how Tolkien's racist description wasn't enough, and orcs have been depicted as more and more grotesque over time. Canonically orcs more or less just look like humans, but that's not "other" enough so they keep getting turned in to more and more bizarre looking monsters.
Either way, this is what i'm thinking about when i'm laid up with the 'rona. If y'all like wrestling or buff men in tiny pants check out Mongolian wrestling. From what I understand it's a hugely popular sport there and has been for like a thousand years.
Was doing a bit of reading; apparently the reason the orcs in the Jackson films look all kinds of different ways, with radically different facial structures and skin colors, is Jackson was aware of this description and threw it out. Apparently the idea was that having orcs be wildly diverse in their appearance wouldn't allow audiences to treat them as a stereotype of any race or ethnic group. Dunno if it's true but if it is good on Jackson for seeing the problem and addressing it.
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John Howe's orcs are about what I pictured them to be based off what Tolkien was writing them in the books.
That song slapped.
Then again most Rankin/Bass goblin/orc songs slapped, like Down Down to Goblin Town.
Yeah, I can dig it. They look like people, just different people.
I don't know if I'd have wanted Tolkien to have finalized his ideas about Orcs or not. Afaik he never decided exactly where they came from. I wrote a short story once set a hundred or two hunred years in to the first age. The idea was that a Man/Edain was riding out to parley with an orc tribe, and it's been a few generations, and he sees the orcs for the first time and thinks they just look like short men, so surely the accounts of them being weird looking monsters during the War of the Ring long ago were exaggerations. And the idea I had was that with the last Dark Lord and follower of Morgoth defeated the power of evil that held the orcs had waned to nothing and they had gradually become man-like or elf-like, and in time were so indistinguishable from Men/Edain that they all started banging and the two species or races or whatever merged in to each other.
Afaik he never decided exactly where they came from.
In The Tolkien Bestiary illustrated by John Blanche and Ian Miller, orcs are said to be corrupted elves, goblins are corrupted dwarves, and trolls are corrupted ents. Basically what happened to Smeagol and turning into Gollum. As elves/dwarves/ents are sealed away in darkness, tortured, and are given various concoctions and incantations, they are turned into orcs/goblins/trolls. They're analogous to fallen angels turning into demons.
I'm not sure how canon this is. It wasn't written by Tolkien himself, but it was an official product published only a few years after his death.
It's canon for elves -> orcs, it was mentioned in SIlmarillion i think. No idea about ents -> trolls but it's plausible because Tolkien noted Morgoth lost power to create anything so for making trolls he had to make them from something already existing. About dwarfs -> goblins it's definitely non canon, goblins are just smaller and nimbler orcs who hate light even more, because they lived few thousands years in caves (remember that it is more than enough time in Middle-Earth for otherwise hundred thousand+ years evolution taking place).
It's canonish. I think the elves were corrupted to orcs thing comes from a couple of different versions of Sillmarillion stories. Trolls being Ents is related to something Treebeard says, but Treebeard says they were made as a mockery of ents, not from ents. I think Tolkien talks about the idea that maybe stone trolls turn to stone in the sun bc they're not "really" alive, they're just cheap knock-offs because Melkor couldn't really create without Illuvatar's help. Whereas the dwarves are really alive because when Illuvatar found out Aule had made them Aule asked for Illuvatar's help so they could have fea and really be living and free willed.
Orcs and goblins is a linguistic thing. I think the Sindarin word for Orc is "yrch". The hobbit was originally written to be quite silly and approachable. I think the original edition mentioned something about riding a train to China before it was edited to be more clearly tied in to LotR. But The Hobbit uses much less Sindarin and more common english words like Goblin and Hobgoblin, but orcs and goblins are different ways of referring to the same sort of people.
Semi related to thread. Follow combat sports. Mongolian wrestling is interesting. They are tanks
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Good god. I, uhh... oh, i twisted my ankle! Could you carry me for a bit giant wrestler man?
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This got me thinking about the depiction of Germans as "Huns" by the Brits in WWI. The Brits racializing Germans as asiatic "Huns" is certainly a head scratcher. It's got me wondering what Tolkien thought Mongolians looked like in the context of the ignorance and racism of the 40s-70s. I can't imagine he knew very many Mongolians, so I imagine he was mostly familiar with contemporary racist yellow-peril propaganda. but then it's Tolkien so who knows, guy read a lot. *shrug*
It hadn't occurred to me prior to try to unpack this within the context of then contemporary stereotypes and ignorance. Like it's one thing to know it's racist, but what does that actually mean? Like, what was the racial stereotype he was mired in? What was his exposure to Mongols?
Like, John Wayne kind of notoriously portrayed Chingis Khan in '56, which is as ridiculous as it sounds CW: John Wayne in, I don't even know, yellow-face? The put him in makeup to play Chingis Khan and he looks ridiculous.
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Like, John Wayne kind of notoriously portrayed Chingis Khan in '56, which is as ridiculous as it sounds CW: John Wayne in, I don’t even know, yellow-face? The put him in makeup to play Chingis Khan and he looks ridiculous.
Fun fact: he was dying to play that role and he really, literally died because of it, they made that movie in heavy nuclear fallout from bomb test and most of the team including Wayne died from cancer later.
John Wayne also smoked 6 packs of cigarettes a day so that may have been a factor in causing his cancer.
Definitely, since it was lung cancer, but the fallout probably sped things up greatly. And again, a lot of other people died too.
Lol. I mean, rip the rest of the team but ha ha ha fuck Wayne ask what you country could do to you John.
Khans curse. Portray him badly and he will kill your from the afterlife.
It's actually pretty impressive he can indirectly nuke people nearly 800 years after his death. I think Warhammer 40k old lore presenting him as the first greater daemon of Khorne was on to something.
The Brits racializing Germans as asiatic "Huns" is certainly a head scratcher.
During the Boxer Rebellion, Kaiser Wilhelm II reportedly ordered his troops to behave "Just as a thousand years ago the Huns under their king Attila". This speech became a lightning rod for fears of German expansion in Europe.
Ironically the german troops during the boxer rebellion behaved about the same as the other nations troops, horrible. Making them all huns.
Fuck.
I already saw Tolkien as a problematic favorite where I acknowledge the
from the author, but this is worse than what I already knew bout him.I may as well post this comic in tribute to our orc comrades and their class struggle against the bourgeoisie of Rivendell.
https://existentialcomics.com/comic/175
Afaik this is about as bad as he ever gets. Like, credit to the guy, his orcs aren't actually a racial stereotype of anyone, they're more a metaphor for industrial warfare. LotR has it's issues; Monarchism, Hobbits as utopian yeomen farmers, all kinds of stuff, but it's much less egregious than the stories that inspired it and the stories it inspired. Like it's smack in the middle between Conan and Warcraft, with Conan being straight up Klan levels of racist, and then you've got Warcraft's traditional depiction of trolls as Jamaican stereotypes, native american minotaurs, whatever their orcs are supposed to be.
Games Workshop did weirdly good by making their orcs British soccer hooligans.
Games Workshop did weirdly good by making their orcs British soccer hooligans.
They also made their flavor of ontologically evil elves into pasty nordic vikings.
The Druchii aren't really Nordic at all, that would be the Norscans/Norseman. If anything the Druchii are like if a canadian mining company gave out the CIA torture guide as part of the employee handbook.
whatever their orcs are supposed to be.
Brits. Stolen from Warhammer orcs, which originally were satire on British football hooligans - Warcraft 1 was supposed to be Warhammer game originally but the licence did got revoked as soon as the game started to appear fun, we can't have that in early Warhammer games. So the Blizzard did a typical Blizzard thing and took them anyway, just without the satire. And this also checks out on many other levels:
- were opressed for few years but cannot shut up about that ever
- speaks about honor and freedom all the time but constantly do mass murders and pretends its some oopsie factions just coincidentally in power at the time
- more or less coerce other people into joining and then colonises them in the United
KingdomHorde and before you notice there are orcish military bases everywhere - promote rapacious capitalism and widespread environmental destruction
- speaking of environmental destruction they destroyed one world already, also doing genocide
- served demons
- have legends about being noble people before getting coerced into demonic servants and genocide by coincidentally small clique and rest having no agency whatsoever, which breaks under some scrutiny
- their architecture is incredibly shitty and their cities looks like dumps
To be fair the early W1 and W2 orcs were mostly bog standard evil horde just with some effort put in, but the more time passed, the more British they became.
Games Workshop did weirdly good by making their orcs British soccer hooligans.
Yeh, dat wuz a gud plan, and dat's why I'm a proppa git for me orky boyz.
I have never seen anything Warhammer 40K related that wasn't improved by putting more focus on the Orkz.
Though admittedly on the very few occasions I touch WH40K anything, I tend to go Imperial Guard. I'm an incurable sucker for stories about ordinary people fighting through terrible situations
I remember GW did a scenario pitting a planet's Imperial Guard against a Space Marine chapter, but they fucked it up by going with the most boring possible motivation of "the planet's population has been mind-controlled including its Imperial Guard, so the Space Marines have to save the day" rather than one of the countless understandable reasons an element of the Guard would mutiny.
Games Workshop has increasingly leaned into making what was once a Thatcher
-era satire of all things Thatcher into a "these space fascists are actually good guys and you should admire and look up to them" pandering effort to sell more Spehs Mehreens to chuddy enthusiasts.As a consequence, the setting is in places ponderously tryhard and pretentious and up its own ass, and Da Orkz is a proppa pressa valve to dat muckin' about.
Da Orkz is a proppa pressa valve to dat muckin’ about.
Just there's a problem about that, if you think about scale and of what they really do for a second. Suffice to say, even a faction like Culture from Banks books, which had not genociding as a rule, would probably wiped them out.
Books about orks are pretty good though, for some reason they usually tend to be more deep in lore than 19876987th story about heroic last stand or le epic quest for nothing which most of other books in 40k are.They're not the good guys, nor did they ever have pretenses of being the good guys. My point is they're the persistent sense of humor of the sometimes ponderously pretentious 40k setting.
Sure, but tons of people forget that and fun=good is very prevalent opinion among the ork fans, so i got into the habit of reminding people that biological military von neuman rogue machines are nothing good. Then again the fashdom is full of unironic stans of factions like Tyranids, Drukhari or Black Templars, so... Also 40k fun can be cringe as fuck, allow me to unearth the ghastly cadaver of Angry Marines.
allow me to unearth the ghastly cadaver of Angry Marines
Please don't.
Orks being, well, self-destructive gits seems to be the built-in limiter system that prevents them from utterly devouring the galaxy, so there's that.
Probably? After War in Heaves ended krorks devolved into orks and did... something for the entire 60 million years, but that something wasn't spreading themselves everywhere, since in 60 million years they would, even in the current state, filled every single niche possible. I doubt Eldar waged apocalyptic wars against them for the entire time, so their current resurgence seems to be reaction to humanity, species very much resembling ancient necrontyr, spreading to entire galaxy (which Eldar never did, also Eldar were nominally on the same side of WiH) and dragging chaos everywhere they go. Also necrons are back. Also tyranids everywhere. Galaxy in grave danger on multiple fronts, krorks to the rescue.
The fiction setting's comic relief rampaging more out of control than usual may well be like an allergic reaction to the fiction setting straying that far from its satirical roots.
rampaging more out of control
If you mean in universe everything escalated pretty harshly since orginal Rogue Trader and even first editions of 40K. Out of universe it's mostly just "SHUT UP I KILL YOU" Ahmed kind of humour recently. Though even in it they still have moments, like Ghazghkull at pretty much close to beginning of his career came to space hulk where he met greater daemon of Khorne coming straight from the permanent warp portal, krumped him in less than minute then screamed straight into the warp "THAT WAS PATHETIC! SEND SOMETHING BIGGER!" to which the portal closed and daemons all over hulk evaporated.
Hegemonising Swarm detected. Effectors activated. Further message from GOU present on site: "Ew".
I know Tolkien always said his stories werent an allegorical, LotR is still a story about dark forces amassing in the east, coming to destroy the fairskinned blond haired
fascistsgood guysI really struggled watching rings of power because i was instantly rooting for, Adar and his band of merry friends (with chosen names, struggling for national liberation)
I started reading the Russian middle earth story from the orcs perspective (i cant recall the name), and i was really enjoying it until i got distracted
sorry I'm rambling, hope youre feeling better Frank
So, uh, where does one watch Mongolian wrestling (other than just searching online)? Where can we follow this enthralling sport?
Right? It'd be fun to go all around the world comparing the uniforms different cultures use for wrestling. Pretty much every culture has some kind of wrestling tradition and they've all got their variation on booty shorts or unitards.
In this game called head-up-ass the challenge is to stick phallus shapped rod on head up your opponent's ass. Some games have centipedes of head-up-ass over a dozen men long.
