This conflict has the potential to cause real change in Russia. We're talking about potentially getting rid of Putin's regime and it's being done without sending any of our troops to die. The help Ukraine is getting isn't charity, look at the bigger picture.
Why are they sending hundreds of thousands of working class people of both Ukraine, Russia and third countries to kill each other then, if it's really about the governments' wrongdoings?
Why not support revolutionaries within Russia, helping the Russians to dispose of their own government? Why does NATO have to be involved as an actor in the first place? Why do workers have to murder each other on front lines? The governments' and militaries' support should be constrained strictly to humanitarian support and help, not weapons.
Both governments and their national capital are the enemy. It is a war between two economies over geopolitical control over Ukraine, fought by and written in blood of people who don't profit from either side of the war. No Ukrainian soldier or Russian soldier wins at the end of the day. Whichever side wins, it is going to end in a bloodbath and further oppression. Sure, a Russian win would be worse in the long run, but the Ukrainian government and NATO countries ain't no saints either, and is certainly not the side I would like to die for.
Russia would certainly impose its oppressive social stances on the territory including its homophobia, sexism, racism, patriarchal order, lack of freedom of press and so on. This would probably not be as bad under a NATO-aligned European government (although the West has been known to bring fascists to power if necessary), which uses its slight edge in progressivism as a useful propaganda shield.
Both would however use it as a geopolitical pressure point for further aggression, stationing nuclear weapons, economically colonize the war-torn ruins by "helping rebuild", and subduing the local population and labor rights. Zelensky disbanded unions and the right to strike, abolished gay marriage for the duration of the war to prevent gay refugees from taking their husbands with them, banned socialist movements and is draconic against draft dodgers and peace activists (even those without Russian ties). The Ukrainian army stations troops in civilian places to hide them, endangering their own people, incorporate and welcome neo-nazis into their military as part of some kind of popular front, and use banned weapons. On the other side, Russia does all of these too and commits war crimes left and right, so it is not like they are any more welcome in my eyes.
Either outcome would (in the long term) be worse for the people of Ukraine, Russia, the rest of Europe and probably the world. The war would not stop after Ukraine.
As long as our economy is steered by the whims of wealthy people seeking to maximize their profits and not by any democratic process, we will have these issues over and over again as at some point the only direction the economy could grow is into other countries.
It's no coincidence that China and Russia are the "enemies" of the West when they are the two biggest economies that mainly act in competition to the Western economies. For instance, Amazon would literally kill to get the entire Chinese market, let alone all other American multinationals. And with the power that money and capital has, a war is possible to incite based on that desire to expand to "enemy countries". Same with the Chinese and Russian economies. Tencent and Gazprom would love to control their respective Western markets.
If Putin is overthrown the people most likely to overthrow him are hardliners who think he's being a cuck by not immediately nuking Kiev and Washington.
So it's a good thing that there's basically zero indication of major internal political stability in Russia. Even the Wagner "coup" only asked for Shoigu and Gerasimov to be removed, not Putin.
You do realize that America already overthrew Russia's government once, and that is how Putin came to be in the first place, right? You expect cycle #2 to go better?
We're talking about potentially getting rid of Putin's regime and it's being done without sending any of our troops to die.
The people surrounding Putin who are most likely to replace him are hardliners who think Kiev should be glassed. Part of the motivation behind the Wagner mutiny is Prigo thinking Shoigu isn't going hard enough in Ukraine. Contrary to liberal bots who only listen to what CNN tells them, it's good for everyone involved that the Wagner mutiny was completely deflated. There wouldn't be much of a Ukraine left if Prigo was in charge, and Prigo is not the only one.
This conflict has the potential to cause real change in Russia. We're talking about potentially getting rid of Putin's regime and it's being done without sending any of our troops to die. The help Ukraine is getting isn't charity, look at the bigger picture.
If foreigners are people then why can't they vote in our elections?
Checkmate tankie.
Never mind all the US vets that died over there lmfao
This person just outing themself as craving the sending of Ukrainians into the fucking meatgrinder. The sheer disregard for human life is disgusting
Why are they sending hundreds of thousands of working class people of both Ukraine, Russia and third countries to kill each other then, if it's really about the governments' wrongdoings?
Why not support revolutionaries within Russia, helping the Russians to dispose of their own government? Why does NATO have to be involved as an actor in the first place? Why do workers have to murder each other on front lines? The governments' and militaries' support should be constrained strictly to humanitarian support and help, not weapons.
Both governments and their national capital are the enemy. It is a war between two economies over geopolitical control over Ukraine, fought by and written in blood of people who don't profit from either side of the war. No Ukrainian soldier or Russian soldier wins at the end of the day. Whichever side wins, it is going to end in a bloodbath and further oppression. Sure, a Russian win would be worse in the long run, but the Ukrainian government and NATO countries ain't no saints either, and is certainly not the side I would like to die for.
Though I personally don't know who of the two evils would be the worse win in the long run, yes, agreed, very much this.
Russia would certainly impose its oppressive social stances on the territory including its homophobia, sexism, racism, patriarchal order, lack of freedom of press and so on. This would probably not be as bad under a NATO-aligned European government (although the West has been known to bring fascists to power if necessary), which uses its slight edge in progressivism as a useful propaganda shield.
Both would however use it as a geopolitical pressure point for further aggression, stationing nuclear weapons, economically colonize the war-torn ruins by "helping rebuild", and subduing the local population and labor rights. Zelensky disbanded unions and the right to strike, abolished gay marriage for the duration of the war to prevent gay refugees from taking their husbands with them, banned socialist movements and is draconic against draft dodgers and peace activists (even those without Russian ties). The Ukrainian army stations troops in civilian places to hide them, endangering their own people, incorporate and welcome neo-nazis into their military as part of some kind of popular front, and use banned weapons. On the other side, Russia does all of these too and commits war crimes left and right, so it is not like they are any more welcome in my eyes.
Either outcome would (in the long term) be worse for the people of Ukraine, Russia, the rest of Europe and probably the world. The war would not stop after Ukraine.
As long as our economy is steered by the whims of wealthy people seeking to maximize their profits and not by any democratic process, we will have these issues over and over again as at some point the only direction the economy could grow is into other countries. It's no coincidence that China and Russia are the "enemies" of the West when they are the two biggest economies that mainly act in competition to the Western economies. For instance, Amazon would literally kill to get the entire Chinese market, let alone all other American multinationals. And with the power that money and capital has, a war is possible to incite based on that desire to expand to "enemy countries". Same with the Chinese and Russian economies. Tencent and Gazprom would love to control their respective Western markets.
good thoughtful post
Absolutely fair point, you may well be right. I pretty much agree on all points.
If Putin is overthrown the people most likely to overthrow him are hardliners who think he's being a cuck by not immediately nuking Kiev and Washington.
So it's a good thing that there's basically zero indication of major internal political stability in Russia. Even the Wagner "coup" only asked for Shoigu and Gerasimov to be removed, not Putin.
You do realize that America already overthrew Russia's government once, and that is how Putin came to be in the first place, right? You expect cycle #2 to go better?
deleted by creator
Putin has more support than ever…
For gods sake try to imagine this from a Russian perspective. NATO bombs are killing their people.
Like, seriously, imagine how your average American would react to this. Treat the Russians as human for one fucking second.
They are not going to fucking blame Putin for that. They will blame NATO!!!
The people surrounding Putin who are most likely to replace him are hardliners who think Kiev should be glassed. Part of the motivation behind the Wagner mutiny is Prigo thinking Shoigu isn't going hard enough in Ukraine. Contrary to liberal bots who only listen to what CNN tells them, it's good for everyone involved that the Wagner mutiny was completely deflated. There wouldn't be much of a Ukraine left if Prigo was in charge, and Prigo is not the only one.
the only change I want in russia is the return of the soviet union
time is a flat circle
This is the most important proxy war of our lifetime!
We are killing the Russians to help the Russians
The help Ukraine is getting will go to nill when these fascists finally lose
Once again a westoid proves Ukrainian lives don't matter to them.