He's unfortunately the public face of Buddhism to the common person in the West, but I always have to go out of my way to emphasize how he's really just a drop in the ocean. He's not even the spiritual head of his own school, just the political figurehead for the exile government.
I studied at a Kagyu-Nyingma monastery and he never gets mentioned at all. His relevance to the average Buddhist who isn't Tibetan is really quite low, and even many Tibetan practitioners don't think of him as an authority, but just another teacher they may or may not be familiar with.
Someone practicing Zen or Chan or Pure Land, or anything else outside of that sphere doesn't regard him at all except on an individual level.
Edit: I know he tries to sell Buddhism to the average Westerner who is influenced by Facebook posts, so pithy quotes like this are his style. But the Gelug school is literally the debate school that practices reductio ad absurdum in the courtyards to suss out what is true. So it's always a little sad to see that and the rest of the philosophy de-emphasized.
Lol, no. I just mentioned it to point out that even the other Tibetan schools don't really have much to do with the Dalai Lama. His picture isn't hung up anywhere.
I used to think that if I ever wanted to leave everything behind, I'd go be a monk somewhere. But then I started falling asleep during lectures because they were being live translated from Tibetan into English and it's hard to concentrate when someone is speaking a language you don't know but you have to listen to them respectfully like you have a clue what it is they're saying.
The biggest lesson I learned was the value of community and I sort of understood why people congregate to churches and things. Everyone around me had the same baseline assumptions of what they should be doing to better themselves and to support each other, so it felt really significant to progress along that path together. These were people that traveled from all over the world to come to this spot to learn from authentic teachers, so they were also much more genuine than the meditation bros you'll find many places in the West. I hope to find that same community of socialists irl when I am in a position to do so.
If it were possible, I'd fly every Western Buddhist somewhere like that so they can experience the culture shock between their perception of commodified versions of Buddhism presented here and how much logic and philosophy is actually involved. It isn't just good vibes and sitting on a meditation cushion. There's mountains of texts written about epistemology, ethics, logic, etc. And it's not static, there's been many advancements in thought over the last decade. Such as how we now know that both Mahayana and 'Theravadin' (they weren't called that back then) Buddhists existed in the same monasteries in the past and no longer think that Mahayana was a later development, but competing schools of thought that developed in conversation with each other.
There's not really too many 'secret teachings' or anything. Even the things that are supposed to be 'secret' are really just things you're supposed to be trained by a teacher on first so that you do them properly. It's not a gatekeeping thing, but a "hey maybe you shouldn't meditate in front of corpses to contemplate death without first appropriately contextualizing this action and mentally preparing yourself so that you don't develop mental health issues" thing.
EDIT: Oh, yeah, that time also turned me vegan. The monastery only served vegan food. Meat has been big in Tibetan culture for a long time, but even long-dead masters had problems with it and monasteries forbidding meat is becoming more and more widespread. There's lots of texts about animal rights and their place in Buddhist ethics as well.
I don't honestly know, it's not something I tried and it's not something anyone I know actually did. It is something that is mentioned in texts though. It's supposed to be a very advanced practice if you do it at all, so not something for newcomers. Primarily for the reason I mentioned of how it can really mess you up if you just go and do it on a whim.
Yeah thats fair enough, did you learn/experience anything that changed the way you see reality on a fundamental level (other than what you mentioned about community)?
Well, I edited my comment to say the experience also turned me vegan. Since the primary goal is the reduction and elimination of suffering, it only stands to reason this includes animal suffering. I don't consider myself a Secular Buddhist in that I don't try to mold the religious teachings I've received into a secular framework (and I do not like Stephen Bachelor), but I just go along with some things while not personally believing they are true. Rebirth being the biggest thing, where a lot of Buddhist philosophy falls apart if you remove cosmological components like that, since many things follow from that assumption. But I'm not personally sold.
Buddhists tells a lot of stories about how significantly advanced practitioners can influence their own rebirths by building the mental fortitude (through years/lifetimes of meditation practice) to withstand and navigate the hellish and chaotic experience of their mindstream being ripped from their body at death and scattered/pulled in many different directions to their new life. It's silly to tell, but essentially, someone told me that my cat could be an enlightened being who is here to teach me patience and compassion for other beings. Do I literally believe that? No. But the idea did make me try to temper some of my impatience with their more destructive behaviors and open my mind to being more compassionate toward other animals in general.
Wikipedia no doubt has a simplified explanation, but in Madhyamaka philosophy, there's the idea of the "two truths" which is something we delved very heavily into. I don't know that it has really changed how I interact with the world as much as the former thing though.
I have a ton of negativity associated with pretty much every major religion, because at least here in the West, it really seems like everything is just appropriated to reiterate that "all is well under the Earth" and to morally condemn eating chocolate cake and sex, but when it's not Christianity it's basically just made into Christianity but more valid because it's not made by white people (I mean fair but it's also kind of... orientalist and obviously appropriation)
It's really nice seeing all the context in how there's actual philosophy and ideas and practices and esoteric studies and cool shit and weird shit like Christianity. It's not some sort of exceptional (and exceptionally racist concept of) "magic oriental knowledge", it's just... another tradition with amazing elements and communities and it's own cosmology and beliefs.
Sorry that's probably irrelevant but I just found the Wikipedia article really cool. It reminds me (even though it's entirely different) of how you had so much philosophy and ideas spiral off of Christianity that are sometimes integral to it and sometimes just monks accidentally discovering how to make a new kind of beer.
I think I get what you mean. I was trying to avoid orientalizing because there are white Buddhist teachers across the globe who really know their stuff. It's not a matter of "Asian teacher good" or "Asian religion good". There are plenty of Vietnamese monks who were born into the religion who smoke and ride motorcycles and buy the latest iPhones. It happens everywhere. But institutionally, because there has been more community and monetary support for Buddhist temples, you get more of the philosophy and less of the 'meditation-as-productivity-tool' stuff in non-Western countries.
Westerners just primarily get exposed through very watered down versions of the philosophy from people like Alan Watts and other spiritual hippie types who traveled to India decades ago. And before that, people like the British colonists who threw out any idea they couldn't recontextualize into a Christian framework. Or modern tech grifters selling their meditation apps.
There's lots of cool teachings and stories you can interpret literally or metaphorically depending on the situation. Like Manjushri cutting open the Himalayan valleys with a giant flaming sword, the consumption of human ashes as an intentional taboo to shock the mind out of a dualistic concept of reality, Chinese monks burning the books of other monks and essentially telling them to
Show
. There's thousands of years of cosmology that blends with different cultures. And equally as much philosophical work as all of the European philosophers combined.
But with that also comes stuff like the Gelug school burning down other Tibetan monasteries, abuses of power in the sangha, etc. Some more humerous stuff like Buddhists debating Daoists, winning, then writing a follow up called "Laughing at the Dao". Just regular infighting, violence, and things that plague every other religion.
So its good not to have a romanticized view of Buddhism or any other religion. I personally vibe it much more than anything that relies on a creator god, but as this thread discusses, governance based on religious principles doesn't usually go so well.
Nah, I just meant that there are people who do not conform to the ideal stereotype of a monk, sometimes because they were born into the religion. Which sometimes is fine, like tons of monks have full body tattoos and stuff unrelated to their practice, but sometimes there are people who do things contradictory to the teachings. A monk smoking, riding a motorcycle (not like a motorbike for transport), and with a flashy phone probably isn't following the teachings to the letter, if at all. There are militant monks warring against other religions right now. That blows some people's minds because all they get is sanitized images of lotus flowers. Just wanted to point out that Buddhists are people too so romanticizing them, Asian or not, will always lead to disappointment and impossible standards. Just like how Christian's aren't always Christ-like. Tons of Buddhists only engage with things on a surface level, even if they're born into a culture more inclined toward it.
But then I started falling asleep during lectures because they were being live translated from Tibetan into English and it's hard to concentrate when someone is speaking a language you don't know but you have to listen to them respectfully like you have a clue what it is they're saying.
As far as I know, Tibetan is one of the hardest languages to learn, if not the hardest (with Polish being the other one). Its "orthographic depth" is all fucked because it's kept the same spelling for most of its words since 620 AD, with some spelling reforms around 800 AD. It's like if English had everything written in Latin, but pronounced like we already do (example: "finally" being spelled "ad ultimum"). So not only is it in a family already difficult for outsiders, there's no way to learn the spelling except by memorizing specific words, which also makes looking up words difficult.
Arabic has a similar life story to Tibetan, where it was spread and kept alive through religious texts (the Koran). But unlike Tibetan, Arabic has localized and standard updates to its writing. Vowels, for example, weren't originally written in the Arabic used in the Koran. Modern Arabic has vowels inserted to make it easier to read (that is what all those , ' ` -looking things are in Arabic script, those are vowels). Tibetan hasn't done this.
It's one of the challenges of improving literacy among Tibetans. A lot of them are like "Have you seen this shit? It may as well be Greek."
Just a little quibble with your point about Tibetan writing - a better comparison would be Modern English written as it was during the Old English period. So like “lord” might be written as “hlafweard”, for example, because it is a direct descendent of that word put through hundreds of years of pronunciation change. English doesn’t come from Latin and “finally” doesn’t come from “ad ultimum”, whereas Tibetan does come from Old Tibetan, the language the script was originally fairly adequately adapted to.
I don't know the historic background, but I would totally believe this. I learned a little bit of spoken Tibetan while I was there, but the romanized words are not pronounced at all like they're spelled and pronunciation is difficult in general. It wasn't necessarily the language itself though, it was more that you have a break in concentration where someone is speaking Tibetan for 2 minutes while you stare at them, then you listen to the translator for 2 minutes and try to write things down, then it's back to not understanding for another 2 minutes, etc. I imagine it's a lot more effective when you speak the language. But 2 hours of that a day was really not fun. Still learned a lot though.
He's unfortunately the public face of Buddhism to the common person in the West, but I always have to go out of my way to emphasize how he's really just a drop in the ocean. He's not even the spiritual head of his own school, just the political figurehead for the exile government.
I studied at a Kagyu-Nyingma monastery and he never gets mentioned at all. His relevance to the average Buddhist who isn't Tibetan is really quite low, and even many Tibetan practitioners don't think of him as an authority, but just another teacher they may or may not be familiar with.
Someone practicing Zen or Chan or Pure Land, or anything else outside of that sphere doesn't regard him at all except on an individual level.
Edit: I know he tries to sell Buddhism to the average Westerner who is influenced by Facebook posts, so pithy quotes like this are his style. But the Gelug school is literally the debate school that practices reductio ad absurdum in the courtyards to suss out what is true. So it's always a little sad to see that and the rest of the philosophy de-emphasized.
Thats so cool, is there any ancient and forbidden knowledge you learned there which you'd want to share with us?
Lol, no. I just mentioned it to point out that even the other Tibetan schools don't really have much to do with the Dalai Lama. His picture isn't hung up anywhere.
I used to think that if I ever wanted to leave everything behind, I'd go be a monk somewhere. But then I started falling asleep during lectures because they were being live translated from Tibetan into English and it's hard to concentrate when someone is speaking a language you don't know but you have to listen to them respectfully like you have a clue what it is they're saying.
The biggest lesson I learned was the value of community and I sort of understood why people congregate to churches and things. Everyone around me had the same baseline assumptions of what they should be doing to better themselves and to support each other, so it felt really significant to progress along that path together. These were people that traveled from all over the world to come to this spot to learn from authentic teachers, so they were also much more genuine than the meditation bros you'll find many places in the West. I hope to find that same community of socialists irl when I am in a position to do so.
If it were possible, I'd fly every Western Buddhist somewhere like that so they can experience the culture shock between their perception of commodified versions of Buddhism presented here and how much logic and philosophy is actually involved. It isn't just good vibes and sitting on a meditation cushion. There's mountains of texts written about epistemology, ethics, logic, etc. And it's not static, there's been many advancements in thought over the last decade. Such as how we now know that both Mahayana and 'Theravadin' (they weren't called that back then) Buddhists existed in the same monasteries in the past and no longer think that Mahayana was a later development, but competing schools of thought that developed in conversation with each other.
There's not really too many 'secret teachings' or anything. Even the things that are supposed to be 'secret' are really just things you're supposed to be trained by a teacher on first so that you do them properly. It's not a gatekeeping thing, but a "hey maybe you shouldn't meditate in front of corpses to contemplate death without first appropriately contextualizing this action and mentally preparing yourself so that you don't develop mental health issues" thing.
EDIT: Oh, yeah, that time also turned me vegan. The monastery only served vegan food. Meat has been big in Tibetan culture for a long time, but even long-dead masters had problems with it and monasteries forbidding meat is becoming more and more widespread. There's lots of texts about animal rights and their place in Buddhist ethics as well.
Fascinating, thank you for the writeup!
So how do you prepare yourself mentally to contemplate death in front of a corpse?
I don't honestly know, it's not something I tried and it's not something anyone I know actually did. It is something that is mentioned in texts though. It's supposed to be a very advanced practice if you do it at all, so not something for newcomers. Primarily for the reason I mentioned of how it can really mess you up if you just go and do it on a whim.
Yeah thats fair enough, did you learn/experience anything that changed the way you see reality on a fundamental level (other than what you mentioned about community)?
Well, I edited my comment to say the experience also turned me vegan. Since the primary goal is the reduction and elimination of suffering, it only stands to reason this includes animal suffering. I don't consider myself a Secular Buddhist in that I don't try to mold the religious teachings I've received into a secular framework (and I do not like Stephen Bachelor), but I just go along with some things while not personally believing they are true. Rebirth being the biggest thing, where a lot of Buddhist philosophy falls apart if you remove cosmological components like that, since many things follow from that assumption. But I'm not personally sold.
Buddhists tells a lot of stories about how significantly advanced practitioners can influence their own rebirths by building the mental fortitude (through years/lifetimes of meditation practice) to withstand and navigate the hellish and chaotic experience of their mindstream being ripped from their body at death and scattered/pulled in many different directions to their new life. It's silly to tell, but essentially, someone told me that my cat could be an enlightened being who is here to teach me patience and compassion for other beings. Do I literally believe that? No. But the idea did make me try to temper some of my impatience with their more destructive behaviors and open my mind to being more compassionate toward other animals in general.
Wikipedia no doubt has a simplified explanation, but in Madhyamaka philosophy, there's the idea of the "two truths" which is something we delved very heavily into. I don't know that it has really changed how I interact with the world as much as the former thing though.
I have a ton of negativity associated with pretty much every major religion, because at least here in the West, it really seems like everything is just appropriated to reiterate that "all is well under the Earth" and to morally condemn eating chocolate cake and sex, but when it's not Christianity it's basically just made into Christianity but more valid because it's not made by white people (I mean fair but it's also kind of... orientalist and obviously appropriation)
It's really nice seeing all the context in how there's actual philosophy and ideas and practices and esoteric studies and cool shit and weird shit like Christianity. It's not some sort of exceptional (and exceptionally racist concept of) "magic oriental knowledge", it's just... another tradition with amazing elements and communities and it's own cosmology and beliefs.
Sorry that's probably irrelevant but I just found the Wikipedia article really cool. It reminds me (even though it's entirely different) of how you had so much philosophy and ideas spiral off of Christianity that are sometimes integral to it and sometimes just monks accidentally discovering how to make a new kind of beer.
I think I get what you mean. I was trying to avoid orientalizing because there are white Buddhist teachers across the globe who really know their stuff. It's not a matter of "Asian teacher good" or "Asian religion good". There are plenty of Vietnamese monks who were born into the religion who smoke and ride motorcycles and buy the latest iPhones. It happens everywhere. But institutionally, because there has been more community and monetary support for Buddhist temples, you get more of the philosophy and less of the 'meditation-as-productivity-tool' stuff in non-Western countries.
Westerners just primarily get exposed through very watered down versions of the philosophy from people like Alan Watts and other spiritual hippie types who traveled to India decades ago. And before that, people like the British colonists who threw out any idea they couldn't recontextualize into a Christian framework. Or modern tech grifters selling their meditation apps.
There's lots of cool teachings and stories you can interpret literally or metaphorically depending on the situation. Like Manjushri cutting open the Himalayan valleys with a giant flaming sword, the consumption of human ashes as an intentional taboo to shock the mind out of a dualistic concept of reality, Chinese monks burning the books of other monks and essentially telling them to
But with that also comes stuff like the Gelug school burning down other Tibetan monasteries, abuses of power in the sangha, etc. Some more humerous stuff like Buddhists debating Daoists, winning, then writing a follow up called "Laughing at the Dao". Just regular infighting, violence, and things that plague every other religion.
So its good not to have a romanticized view of Buddhism or any other religion. I personally vibe it much more than anything that relies on a creator god, but as this thread discusses, governance based on religious principles doesn't usually go so well.
deleted by creator
buddhism = motorcycle bad?!??!?
Nah, I just meant that there are people who do not conform to the ideal stereotype of a monk, sometimes because they were born into the religion. Which sometimes is fine, like tons of monks have full body tattoos and stuff unrelated to their practice, but sometimes there are people who do things contradictory to the teachings. A monk smoking, riding a motorcycle (not like a motorbike for transport), and with a flashy phone probably isn't following the teachings to the letter, if at all. There are militant monks warring against other religions right now. That blows some people's minds because all they get is sanitized images of lotus flowers. Just wanted to point out that Buddhists are people too so romanticizing them, Asian or not, will always lead to disappointment and impossible standards. Just like how Christian's aren't always Christ-like. Tons of Buddhists only engage with things on a surface level, even if they're born into a culture more inclined toward it.
EDIT: Many people's first introduction is Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which I haven't personally read.
makes sense, thanks
As far as I know, Tibetan is one of the hardest languages to learn, if not the hardest (with Polish being the other one). Its "orthographic depth" is all fucked because it's kept the same spelling for most of its words since 620 AD, with some spelling reforms around 800 AD. It's like if English had everything written in Latin, but pronounced like we already do (example: "finally" being spelled "ad ultimum"). So not only is it in a family already difficult for outsiders, there's no way to learn the spelling except by memorizing specific words, which also makes looking up words difficult.
Arabic has a similar life story to Tibetan, where it was spread and kept alive through religious texts (the Koran). But unlike Tibetan, Arabic has localized and standard updates to its writing. Vowels, for example, weren't originally written in the Arabic used in the Koran. Modern Arabic has vowels inserted to make it easier to read (that is what all those , ' ` -looking things are in Arabic script, those are vowels). Tibetan hasn't done this.
It's one of the challenges of improving literacy among Tibetans. A lot of them are like "Have you seen this shit? It may as well be Greek."
Just a little quibble with your point about Tibetan writing - a better comparison would be Modern English written as it was during the Old English period. So like “lord” might be written as “hlafweard”, for example, because it is a direct descendent of that word put through hundreds of years of pronunciation change. English doesn’t come from Latin and “finally” doesn’t come from “ad ultimum”, whereas Tibetan does come from Old Tibetan, the language the script was originally fairly adequately adapted to.
I don't know the historic background, but I would totally believe this. I learned a little bit of spoken Tibetan while I was there, but the romanized words are not pronounced at all like they're spelled and pronunciation is difficult in general. It wasn't necessarily the language itself though, it was more that you have a break in concentration where someone is speaking Tibetan for 2 minutes while you stare at them, then you listen to the translator for 2 minutes and try to write things down, then it's back to not understanding for another 2 minutes, etc. I imagine it's a lot more effective when you speak the language. But 2 hours of that a day was really not fun. Still learned a lot though.