how is it an “occupation” when Hawaiians themselves voted to become a state by a 94+% majority?
On June 27, 1959, a referendum asked residents of Hawaiʻi to vote on the statehood bill; 94.3% voted in favor of statehood and 5.7% opposed it.
(source)
If voting "yes" on a referendum to be annexed is an accurate way of knowing that the majority of the populace supports annexation, does the same logic apply to Crimea being annexed by Russia? If not, why not?
inventing some history again are you? because this never happened. if you have to stoop this low to try to “score points” how much lower will you stoop?
So you don't have an argument and have to make shit up. Cool. Judging by your other responses in the thread, you're a shill trying to astroturf support for the U.S., so Imma block you 💅
You said “[a yes vote on Russia annexing Crimea] never happened.”
YOU said that. keep your words out of my mouth.
I showed that it did.
you know everyone can see your comments and my comments, right? that is very much not what happened, as anyone with eyeballs can see. I’m sorry that you’re having trouble seeing reality. consult a physician.
You responded with “We’re taking about Hawaii here.”
because we are, despite your attempts to change the subject. are you lost again?
In 1897, over 21,000 Natives, representing the overwhelming majority of adult Hawaiians, signed anti-annexation petitions in one of the first examples of protest against the overthrow of Queen Liliʻuokalaniʻs government.[143] Nearly 100 years later, in 1993, 17,000 Hawaiians marched to demand access and control over Hawaiian trust lands and as part of the modern Hawaiian sovereignty movement.[144] Hawaiian trust land ownership and use is still widely contested as a consequence of annexation. According to scholar Winona LaDuke, as of 2015, 95% of Hawaiʻiʻs land was owned or controlled by just 82 landholders, including over 50% by federal and state governments, as well as the established sugar and pineapple companies.[144] The Thirty Meter Telescope is planned to be built on Hawaiian trust land, but has faced resistance as the project interferes with Kanaka indigeneity.[clarify][145]
If you think a referendum from 1959 fairly represents the interests of the native population then what else is there to say.
If you think a referendum from 1959 fairly represents the interests of the native population then what else is there to say.
that it does, and you have failed to prove otherwise despite quoting a block f text you clearly don’t understand— OR are intentionally misrepresenting, hoping everyone else here is too stupid to realize you’re trying to pull a fast one on them.
A referendum to either become a state or remain a territory is not relevant to the question of the occupation.
only because you’ve moved the goalposts when you couldn’t win that argument with facts.
People were never given a choice of independence
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the people always ave that choice. they can protest, revolt, etc. Did the Bolsheviks just ask the Tsars to pretty please step aside?
Seems that you’re intentionally arguing in bad faith here.
I’m not the one ignoring facts, employing logical fallacies and hurling personal insults when I don’t “win” online arguments.
Clearly you’re a much bigger idiot than I thought you were.
can’t argue with facts, so playskool insults it is. classy. no wonder I see he molding full of you getting posts and comments removed, and you’re totally banned form lemmy.world.
also explains this post https://lemmy.ml/post/2756876
only because you’ve moved the goalposts when you couldn’t win that argument with facts.
I didn't move any goal posts. I said Hawaii is an occupied territory, and you came back with BuT ThEy HaD a RefErEnduM. Forgetting to mention that the referendum wasn't actually about independence and that the people of Hawaii were never given a choice of independence by their occupiers.
There is no false dichotomy here. It's hilarious seeing your comment history where you communicate through memes like a 5 year old child.
the people always ave that choice. they can protest, revolt, etc. Did the Bolsheviks just ask the Tsars to pretty please step aside?
People in Hawaii are revolting against your regime as we speak.
The facts are that you made false claim and now you don't even have the decency to admit it. No point having further discussion with a liar.
also explains this post https://lemmy.ml/post/2756876
“nuh-uh!” isn’t a very convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.
There is no false dichotomy here.
see my previous reply
People in Hawaii are revolting against your regime as we speak.
a handful of protesters is hardly a “revolt”, but you’re adorable for thinking “big”.
The facts are
the last thing you have is a grasp on the facts. your comment an post history are proof enough of that, with a long history of bans, deleted comments, and verbally being drummed you of most places you visit or being a toxic mess.
“nuh-uh!” isn’t a very convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.
Do feel free to articulate which goal posts you're claiming that I moved. Be specific.
see my previous reply
I did, it's nonsensical.
a handful of protesters is hardly a “revolt”, but you’re adorable for thinking “big”.
Way to dismiss majority of the native population. I guess that's what you'd expect from racist occupiers.
the last thing you have is a grasp on the facts. your comment an post history are proof enough of that, with a long history of bans, deleted comments, and verbally being drummed you of most places you visit or being a toxic mess.
Wow interesting narrative you made up about me there. Maybe send me of whatever drugs you're having while hallucinating these things, cause that sounds like some good shit.
Do feel free to articulate which goal posts you’re claiming that I moved. Be specific.
I already have, in detail. sealioning as you last line of attack? boring…
I did, it’s nonsensical.
I’m not responsible for your lack of comprehension.
Way to dismiss majority of the native population.
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Wow interesting narrative you made up about me there
anyone is free to look at your comment history or the modlogs. no drugs necessary. how like you to hurl insult - yet again - when confronted with facts you can’t refute.
You're literally defending why it's justified for US to occupy Hawaii in this thread colonizer. I'm very much entertained by you publicly debasing yourself here. Hope you made enough FICO score points to buy yourself food tonight.
You’re literally defending why it’s justified for US to occupy Hawaii in this thread colonizer
I merely presented facts you didn’t like, so you’re lying about what I said (even though anyone can scroll up and see you’re lying and what I actually said) just because you have no argument other than to hurl insults.
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I’m very much entertained by you publicly debasing yourself here.
then you’re experiencing hallucinations, as the facts don’t correspond to your experience.
Hope you made enough FICO score points to buy yourself food tonight.
whatever that means…. I buy food with money I earn from work.
What you presented was a referendum that wasn't done exclusively amongst the indigenous population whose land your regime occupied, and that wasn't about independence at all.
That's the only actual straw man in this thread.
And now you just keep spamming here instead of admitting that you are a liar, but anybody can read this thread and see that you are full of shit.
whatever that means…. I buy food with money I earn from work.
since, after multiple accusations, you STILL can’t show evidence of this without either putting words in my mouth or outright lying (which I point out every time, as the comments above prove), it’s a bit f a joke now when you say this.
What you presented was a referendum that wasn’t done exclusively amongst the indigenous population whose land your regime occupied, and that wasn’t about independence at all.
moving the goalposts doesn’t change the facts, which I have laid out and explained detail above already. repeating the same logical fallacies over and over won’t make them magically come true.
And now you just keep spamming her
if you don’t like it when I call out your repeated BS every time you reply with false accusations, childish insults, logical fallacies, and outright lies, then you cans top any time. facing the consequences of your actions is not a a state of victimhood.
at a troll farm
oh, I thought you loved Russians and the fine work they do!
lmao I love how you think that if you just keep repeating bullshit enough times it’ll be true, what an utter clown you are
it’s interesting how simply hearing the facts repeated angers you so much, right to the point of tantrums and hurling insults. Hardly a position from which to argue that your is the reasonable point, or the factual one, especially since you have no facts.
Sorry to bother you two, but it's pretty clear we have someone running maybe six different alts, and it looks like they're boosting each one with votes from the others. Is that allowed here? See the comment I'm replying to and the comment it replied to for evidence.
it’s not amazing that I can copy and paste images I see in other comment threads. especially when they work well… I even say that’s what I did in several comments.
it’s sad that, rather than seeing that you’re wrong, you invent conspiracies, lmao. you’re not that important
Whhaaaa??? you mean to say that a brigading band of angry trolls from two of the most toxic instances in the fediverse remain unconvinced by facts and logic??? GASP!!
No, I’m talking about the one angry troll pretending to be six different people who is being toxic in this thread.
right, because the only way some could disagree with or object to a brigade of angry trolls from hexbear is because of some “conspiracy” you can’t prove.
lol
You’re committing a strawman fallacy, or a false equivalence, or a false dichotomy, whatever, take your pick. You don’t know the difference, anyway.
“I know you are but what am I?” doesn’t make a convincing argument. most people learn that when they’re 5.
No, you're right, it's much more likely that several different users are all doing the same "everything you say is a logical fallacy" shtick, using the exact same Philosophy 101 infographics for these alleged logical fallacies in their posts, all completely failing to understand the logical fallacies they're accusing others of committing, all using the same arguments verbatim, have all been active in the last five hours, all have comment scores that immediately shoot up to 7 after a few minutes, all have posts in the same Star Trek comm where one of the accounts just happens to be a mod, and are all acting like all around shithead trolls everywhere they go. Nope, clearly totally separate people, must be a conspiracy.
Again, no one's buying it.
Honestly I kind of pity you. How bad is your life that you have to sit here for hours on the internet with several different accounts just being a shithead everywhere and just keep arguing with people like a child? It's really pathetic. Get off the computer, go outside, go talk to people.
No, you’re right, it’s much more likely that several different users are all doing the same “everything you say is a logical fallacy” shtick, using the exact same Philosophy 101 infographics for these alleged logical fallacies in their posts,
yeah, because google exists and copy/paste exist everywhere but on whatever planet you’re from. You guys should get on that.
it’s been my experience that bullies like to blame others for the consequences they face rather then accept them.
you’re free to troll someone else. all your bottled up rage has to go somewhere, right? it’s not like you know how to deal with it in a healthy way, or you wouldn’t be here proving that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
In me experience, and especially with those who’ve been accused of projection in the past, a really good tell of someone’s insecurity is the good ol’ “you’re projecting” line. see, it’s something a psychologist wouldn’t really be able to diagnose until they’d met and interviewed a person, but with online trolls and bullies, it’s a pretty easy tell that they, in fact, are the ones projecting.
you’re pretty sloppy at trolling, and you give yourself away a lot. oh, and beyond wasting bth of our time, you really haven’t done anything but make yourself very upset. I’ve enjoyed serveral films.
Anyway, what about your parents? Did your mother love you? From the way you’ve been behaving today, I’m starting to think she might not have been a part of your life. Do you need a hug?
you know that “projection” thing you were talking about? 😄
your life must be pretty dull if all you can do is spend time imagining conspiracies against, you. and such boring conspiracies…
edit: I wonder… if you told someone your little theory, do you think they’d think you were making it up, or just shocked at how pathetic it was you gave a crap?"
because I know what th word means. don’t fear knowledge, kid. knowledge is super!
I’m just making deductions based on observations, that’s all.
jumping straight tp paranoid conspiracy rather than considering that your trolling is unpopular isn’t what most would consider rational.
It’s okay if you don’t want to talk about your dad, it’s not your fault he wasn’t around when you were a child. What about the other kids in school? Did they bully you a lot? I’m getting a real “bullied as a child” impression from you, the way you keep lashing out on the internet like this.
I’m sorry that you really want to talk about your dad, but I’m not your therapist.
then I suppose “paranoid delusion” is more appropriate.
Do you remember when he left you? Did he ever lay his hands on you or your mother? Other siblings? Remember, it’s not your fault he hit you. You’re not a bad person.
kinda supports my argument that you’re a troll if this is your idea of fun.
but I’ve wasted too much time on this conversation already, and I’d rather be spending it doing literally anything else.
[X] DOUBT
if that were true, you wouldn't have spent hours here trying to convince me of the weird things going on in your head.
In all seriousness though, I do hope you seek therapy. This level of toxic internet behavior really isn’t healthy.
at last, some self-reflection, even if it’s reflecting off of me…. (ya know, that projection thing you mentioned earlier…) also, best of luck with your dad!
seems like they struck a nerve if you're this bent out of shape defending one of the US colonial occupations- I get that it's strategically important to have a military base right smack in the middle of the pacific, but come on don't be a ghoul.
The choice was to become a state or remain a territory. Either yes or no would have had Hawaiian peoples occupied. Statehood could be seen as a regaining a scrap of self determination but all it ended up doing was impoverishing the natives and ceding all wealth to colonizing capitalists. This is a primarily function of bourgeois democracy.
by voting to become a state - especially to such an overwhelming majority - you can hardly argue a dispositive attitude towards the US being there or towards joining the union. so, not only have you moved the goalposts, you’re arguing a straw man and your own emotions.
Once again they were given a choice between becoming a state or remaining a territory. Not for independence. It'd be like offering a scrap of bread to a starving man in exchange for the man legitimizing your ability to keep him malnourished.
The ole adage of "the only thing worse than being exploited is not being exploited " comes to mind.
Since you can't be assed to read your own damn wiki article I assume you're just in bad faith.
sure. why not? people can object to or protest anything.
the fee expression of speech in a democratic forum, however, certainly argues against any of this being “fascist”, though. thanks of pointing this out!
only if you intentionally take them out of context and twist the meaning. because they didn’t do that before the vote. as you said:
Like the Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement which began actively protesting and gained support in the 1960s, pretty soon after the referendum?
so, despite your obviously bad-faith and disingenuous argument, I’m not as stupid as you think I am. nice try.
That’s the thing about facts— your opinions don’t magically make them untrue, regardless of how many folksy sayings or logical fallacies you conjure. NOR how much you try to twist my words.
I dunno what to tell you dawg if you can't understand that a referendum of Hawaiian residents from 1959 doesn't represent the opinions of Native Hawaiians after 60 years of American control and immigration to the island. If you're so into facts and stats you should know a representative measure of their opinion could only be done through a survey of Native Hawaiians
doesn’t represent the opinions of Native Hawaiians
that was never my argument
this is a straw man argument because you couldn’t argue agains the facts I initially stated and moved the goalposts from Hawaiian residents to Hawaiian natives
as such, it’s irrelevant
even if it were relevant then it isn’t now just because you’re angry about… whatever.
If you’re so into facts and stats you should know a representative measure of their opinion could only be done through a survey of Native Hawaiians
well, why don’t you do that and come back when YOU have some relevant facts to present, and we can talk again.
Okay we're in a thread talking about how Native Hawaiians feel about the American government. I actually want to know why you are arguing this point and what you feel it accomplishes, in genuine good faith. Like are you Native Hawaiian, do you like in Hawaii, do you just like the idea of being able to visit Hawaii without a passport, or is there some other reason?
For me, I'm arguing this because I believe Indigenous people around the world have a right to self governance and freedom from colonial occupiers. So what's your reason?
Okay we’re in a thread talking about how Native Hawaiians feel about the American government
due to your amnesia, I’ll remind you that this is how it started:
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once the facts were presented, goalposts were moved to “native” Hawaiians because the argument couldn’t be “won" without that straw man, and I’ve been posting that out since.
I actually want to know why you are arguing this point and what you feel it accomplishes, in genuine good faith.
I doubt that, as I’ve made this clear many, many times, and you keep ignoring it.
Like are you Native Hawaiian, do you like in Hawaii, do you just like the idea of being able to visit Hawaii without a passport, or is there some other reason?
not only is my personal information irrelevant, I’d be pretty stupid to give someone like you any personal details that you’d very obviously weaponize against me at your first opportunity. as I’ve said before, I’m not as stupid as you think I am.
For me, I’m arguing this because I believe Indigenous people around the world have a right to self governance and freedom from colonial occupiers. So what’s your reason?
no, you’re here to “win” because you hate the US and think I’m your enemy. i've seen your comment history. I sonly presented facts and you and your cohorts don’t like the facts as they clash with your ideology, so you attack me rater than argue the facts rationally. It’s hostile, toxic bullying, and the mere suggestion that you’re interested in god-faith discussion outside of your own echo chamber is a joke.
if that were true, you would have argued honestly, with the facts, and in good faith. I have demonstrated, many, many time, how you have not. again, you lie to comfort yourself against facts you refuse to accept.
You’re the one reducing possibilities. Your dichotomy is between staying a territory and becoming a state. While being a state is nominally better than being outright occupied subjects, prior to colonization they were better off, and you suggest decolonization and not being colonized aren’t options.
your lack of ability to imagine another option (such as revolt, etc.) does not mean you “win” the argument. it just means you lose because you lack imagination.
YOUR ARGUMENT is that the result of this referendum matters. It doesn't because, as you've identified, both options are the same. As for Hawaiian resistance, they've been fighting continuously for a hundred years and, like every other liberation movement against the USA, have been ruthlessly suppressed by the fascist police and petty-bourgeoise militia of the "middle class". And, like every other liberation struggle, victory is inevitable as the empire continues to crumble beneath the weight of its sins.
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Also, neat how you've got five devoted followers upvoting you within two minutes on every one of your shitty empire-shilling posts for the last several hours
Yeah I've seen at least two of this dork's alts posting the same dumb infographics of logical fallacies that they themselves are committing without a hint of irony.
YOUR ARGUMENT is that the result of this referendum matters
The FACTS bear that out. you’re attacking me because I pointed that out.
It doesn’t because, as you’ve identified, both options are the same
I didn’t say that, you did. keep your words out of my mouth.
As for Hawaiian resistance, they’ve been fighting continuously for a hundred years and, like every other liberation movement against the USA, have been ruthlessly suppressed by the fascist police and petty-bourgeoise militia of the “middle class”.
relevant to the argument, and a
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you guys are addicted to logical fallacies
And, like every other liberation struggle, victory is inevitable as the empire continues to crumble beneath the weight of its sins.
cute story. also irrelevant
Also, neat how you’ve got five devoted followers upvoting you within two minutes on every one of your shitty empire-shilling posts for the last several hours
lmao you illiterate jackass. a sham vote to join a nation that overthrew your actual government by a bunch of people who moved there specifically to move the needle on that exact vote means nothing. christ, you liberals really love white nationalism as much as the flag fuckers do
Hi guys I'm sorry but this is one of my alts along with @OkToBeTakei@lemm.ee @whiskeypickle@lemmy.ml @BrooklynMan@lemmy.ml and @bauhaus@lemmy.ml. They're misbehaving and acting like a
Hawaii—a U.S. territory since 1898—became the 50th state in August, 1959, following a referendum in Hawaii in which more than 93% of the voters approved the proposition that the territory should be admitted as a state.
There were many Hawaiian petitions for statehood during the first half of the 20th century.
The voters wished to participate directly in electing their own governor and to have a full voice in national debates and elections that affected their lives. The voters also felt that statehood was warranted because they had demonstrated their loyalty—no matter what their ethnic background—to the U.S. to the fullest extent during World War II.
On June 27, 1959, a referendum asked residents of Hawaiʻi to vote on the statehood bill; 94.3% voted in favor of statehood and 5.7% opposed it. The referendum asked voters to choose between accepting the Act and remaining a U.S. territory. The United Nations' Special Committee on Decolonization later removed Hawaiʻi from its list of non-self-governing territories.
I think it's more than a little dishonest to say that the native Hawaiians voted for this. At the time of this referendum, they composed about 15% of the population and their culture and identity had been suppressed for generations.
The US government even admitted in 1993 that the native people never agreed to this.
I think it’s more than a little dishonest to say that the native Hawaiians voted for this.
almost as dishonest as claiming is said something I didn’t and then moving the goalposts to win an argument…
At the time of this referendum, they composed about 15% of the population and their culture and identity had been suppressed for generations.
irrelevant. sad, but irrelevant. thy got to vote, just like anyone else, and, even by your numbers, 2/3 of THAT population voted for statehood.
The US government even admitted in 1993 that the native people never agreed to this.
that’s not what that says, but it’s nice to know how easy it is for you to lie to try to get ahead in an argument. “winning” online debates must be very important for you.
Swarming lands with your settlers and then claiming b-but they muh voted for it, is peak lib cracker imperialism. The french did the same in New Caledonia.
Swarming lands with your settlers and then claiming b-but they muh voted for it, is peak lib cracker imperialism. The french did the same in New Caledonia.
so, when you can’t argue with facts, you rest to redefining words, personal insults, and racist slurs.
I didn’t argue with you, I made clear statements about your nature and your character. Its up to you to change that and if you refuse, well thats just proves me right in the end.
Perhaps it was you that didn't pay attention to the title in the first place? Perhaps it's you that is raising the goal post? Perhaps, now that two different people explained to you that "people who live there" clearly meant "natives" it's time to acknowledge your mistake? Perhaps now that you've been explained what "occupation" means it's time to stop pretending we're talking about something else entirely?
Perhaps it was you that didn’t pay attention to the title in the first place?
see, I have proof, you have madboi rage you can’t process like a healthy person, so you direct it outwards at the person who pointed out - with evidence - that you’re wrong. classy.
now that two different people explained to you that “people who live there” clearly meant “natives”
you mean “moved the goalposts when they could win an argument and on facts”. lying now when there’s plenty f evidence here proving that you’re lying is a pretty bad way to try to convince someone of something.
Perhaps now that you’ve been explained what “occupation” means
I don’t need a bunch of angry trolls who can’ open their mouths without lies, rage, childish insults, and logical fallacies falling out to “explain” anything to me.
I don’t need a bunch of angry trolls who can’ open their mouths without lies, rage, childish insults, and logical fallacies falling out to “explain” anything to me.
I'm pretty sure you understand what we're talking about here: what Native Hawaiians think about being part of the US. Your argument was that once native Hawaiians became minority there was a vote and the majority of immigrant, non-native inhabitants voted to legalize it's status so it's OK. I pointed out, that since we're taking about Native Hawaiians it doesn't really matter how non-natives voted on it. Instead of addressing this you just started using the old argument of "look only on the literal meaning of this comment and ignore the whole point of this discussion". And now here we are. You're angry and rejecting all arguments because being right about one phrase is more important to you than actually talking about this issue. Ok, so you win. You win the pointless discussion about one comment. Are you happy now? Can we now go back to the original point and talk about native Hawaiians? Or you're not actually interested in the topic and are here only to do some light trolling?
I’m pretty sure you understand what we’re talking about here:
I’m pretty sure I see through your logical fallacies and am not buying your mental gymnastics to cover for them.
this isn’t about “winning” just because that’s how you see the world, although I would categorically say that you’ve lost. lost time, lost face, and certainly lost your mind if you think you’ve won anything here.
Or you’re not actually interested in the topic and are here only to do some light trolling?
Yes, you’re really smart and you’re crashing this online argument. Your logic is impeccable and your arguments are flawless. I give up, you win!
it’s sad this is the only way you can see the world. it explains your trolling.
Changing the subject now
why would I engage in a discussion with a troll, knowing full well you have no problem lying, twisting my words, and using very logical fallacy in the book?
The discussion is about US OCCUPYING Hawaii. Imagine thinking that a referendum of the occupiers on whether they want to keep occupying is a valid way to decide whether people who have bee OCCUPIED agree with the occupation. It's like if I moved into your house and put a gun to your head, and then ran a referendum to see if I should stay there.
The fact that you don't understand how idiotic your argument is shows what an utter imbecile you are.
WRONG. you changed the subject to a straw man argument when you couldn’t argue the facts in good faith. Right here:
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going by your comment history, logical fallacies are something you’re an expert at wielding and often get comments removed and your account banned for it (and or your habit of throwing insult-ridden tantrums when your bad-faith tactics fail)
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The fact that you don’t understand how idiotic your argument is shows what an utter imbecile you are.
oh, look, more childish name-calling because you can’t argue in good faith based on the facts, and I’m some idiot who will fall fr your little tricks.
WRONG. you changed the subject to a straw man argument when you couldn’t argue the facts in good faith. Right here:
I see you have reading comprehension problems, which I guess is no surprise given that you communicate almost exclusively in children's pictures. The quote you screenshotted very clearly talks about the native population of Hawaii. You know the people who live there, not the people who are occupying them. Imagine not being able to understand that.
going by your comment history, logical fallacies are something you’re an expert at wielding and often get comments removed and your account banned for it (and or your habit of throwing insult-ridden tantrums when your bad-faith tactics fail)
Sounds like you're talking about yourself there colonizer.
oh, look, more childish name-calling because you can’t argue in good faith based on the facts, and I’m some idiot who will fall fr your little tricks.
I'm just making a basic observation about your level of intelligence based on your comment history. You are objectively an imbecile. This isn't me trying to insult you, that's just a basic fact.
more insults not based in fact. just because I don’t fall for your countless logical fallacies and outright lies - all of which I’ve posted out and explained in detail - doesn’t mean I have any problems reading or comprehending. you’re just mad I keep calling you out. hence the insults.
and if you can’t even win an augment against “children’s pictures”… well, that’s certainly a self-own, as far as I’m concerned.
Sounds like you’re talking about yourself there colonizer.
“I know you are but what am I?” is not a convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.
I’m just making a basic observation
you’re hurling insults because you’re mad, and can’t make an argument based on the facts. but keep trying to convince me you’re “entertained” while throwing name-calling tantrums, lmao
Can I ask you something? And this is me being genuine here, because I'm clearly out of the loop, but what is it about communism that you think is really great? Just forget about the capitalist propaganda comments, I want your genuine opinion, why is it great and what drew you to it?
You can choose not to answer and I respect that, I've seen you guys post around here a lot. While I have in the past tried to avoid those conversations, I've simply never given any of you a chance to speak your mind. Do I believe there are people on lemmy that just want to troll? Absolutely! There's people like that everywhere, I'm simply trying to understand your perspective because I've never engaged in the subject, now I'm intrigued. I've gotten to a point where I just have to know what drives you and why. Answer if you want or ignore me, I won't harass you about it. I'm just trying to give you a chance to speak and explain so I can better understand. There's no trickery here, I promise.
Wow, that's a wild point of view. Thank you for sharing, that's actually really fascinating to see things from another perspective. Unfortunately I don't think I would ever agree to follow in those world views, but I respect your right to believe them and that's realistically what both sides need to achieve, mutual respect. So thanks.
Why don't you read some communist literature? There's 150 years worth of recommendations on almost every conceivable topic from many countries and in many languages. Almost all of us started as liberals until we read something that changed our minds. Once a Marxist has explained capitalism, there's almost no chance of going back (although some do, and they tend to become the worst type of monster).
First of all, that's not at all a reasonable reply to my comment. Second, how the hell do you have the gall to openly post this fascist garbage for all the world to see?
they voted to become a state in 1959, with a 93%+ majority. how is that “fascist” just because you disagree with it?
Hawaii—a U.S. territory since 1898—became the 50th state in August, 1959, following a referendum in Hawaii in which more than 93% of the voters approved the proposition that the territory should be admitted as a state.
There were many Hawaiian petitions for statehood during the first half of the 20th century.
The voters wished to participate directly in electing their own governor and to have a full voice in national debates and elections that affected their lives. The voters also felt that statehood was warranted because they had demonstrated their loyalty—no matter what their ethnic background—to the U.S. to the fullest extent during World War II.
On June 27, 1959, a referendum asked residents of Hawaiʻi to vote on the statehood bill; 94.3% voted in favor of statehood and 5.7% opposed it. The referendum asked voters to choose between accepting the Act and remaining a U.S. territory. The United Nations' Special Committee on Decolonization later removed Hawaiʻi from its list of non-self-governing territories.
Because you are saying it was 100 years ago, so your crimes no longer matter. The holocaust is coming up on 100 years ago now as well. I'm guessing that all the peoples murdered by the Nazis should just get over it and start loving the fascists now as well?
As for your garbage referendum, see my reply to your other post with this garbage.
I confused you with the other fascist above, whose post I was replying to.
Hawaii was annexed in 1898. So, why dredge up anger at the conquest over 100 years later?
You're just here sealioning on an attempt to justify ethnic cleansing. The Holocaust comparison is NOT a false equivalence by the way. Hitler was inspired by the US.
I already blocked him. I'm native and I'm somewhat used to hearing this nonsense. But it still doesn't do good things for me, and he has nothing useful to say anyway. It's all debate perversion with a hard on for colonialism. Anyone with half a brain should be able to see that it's just a lame attempt to justify the subjugation of Hawaii.
Any situation that began with land being stolen from native people via coup and gun-point means anything thereafter is a colonial and imperialist action that creates easily understandable echos of inequality and suffering. For instance lots of Native populations being unable to afford their land, or having to exist as permanent renters, and then also having to suffer ecological consequences such as guinea grass (imported by colonial cattle ranchers into Hawaii that now dries out and burns easily yet has not been removed) causing wild fires that burn entire communities (not to forget the blackrock owned electric company having shitty ill maintained equipment around such communities).
They're running multiple accounts pushing the same reactionary garbage, with the same little debate fallacy pictures, and even the same obnoxious "most people learn this when they're 5" bit.
You’re just here sealioning on an attempt to justify ethnic cleansing. The Holocaust comparison is NOT a false equivalence by the way. Hitler was inspired by the US.
This article doesn’t even mention Hawaii, colonialism, or anything related to it. It speaks of Hitler’s inspiration drawn from slavery and ideas of race superiority towards black people. Not only did you obviously just google “Hitler US inspiration” to cherry-pick something about Hitler, you clearly neither read it or have any understanding of the material.
"Caught between the Hawaiian Army and a 1000-foot drop, over 700 Oʻahu warriors either jumped or were pushed over the edge of the Pali (cliff). In 1898 construction workers working on the Pali road discovered 800 skulls which were believed to be the remains of the warriors that fell to their deaths from the cliff above."
Would Hawaii live in peace and prosperity if it were suddenly its own independent state?
It would be up to the people who live there to figure out how to run things. This is certainly not an argument for US to continue occupying them.
how is it an “occupation” when Hawaiians themselves voted to become a state by a 94+% majority?
If voting "yes" on a referendum to be annexed is an accurate way of knowing that the majority of the populace supports annexation, does the same logic apply to Crimea being annexed by Russia? If not, why not?
inventing some history again are you? because this never happened. if you have to stoop this low to try to “score points” how much lower will you stoop?
So you don't have an argument and have to make shit up. Cool. Judging by your other responses in the thread, you're a shill trying to astroturf support for the U.S., so Imma block you 💅
“I know you are but what am I?” is not a convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.
nah, just argue the facts, which I provide. you don’t like it and hurl childish insults in response. blocking me is doing ME a favor. bye!
Uhhh https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/03/16/290525623/crimeans-vote-on-splitting-from-ukraine-to-join-russia
there’s moving the goalposts, then there’s moving them 55 years into the future and to the other side of the planet.
We’re taking about Hawaii here. you’re so lost and hate the US and “The West™®©” so much that you think this is one of your Ukaine/Russia arguments. WOW….
Get the fuck out of here
YOU said that. keep your words out of my mouth.
you know everyone can see your comments and my comments, right? that is very much not what happened, as anyone with eyeballs can see. I’m sorry that you’re having trouble seeing reality. consult a physician.
because we are, despite your attempts to change the subject. are you lost again?
from your own link
If you think a referendum from 1959 fairly represents the interests of the native population then what else is there to say.
Person is in bad faith and worse, smug. Hhit em with a PPB.
that it does, and you have failed to prove otherwise despite quoting a block f text you clearly don’t understand— OR are intentionally misrepresenting, hoping everyone else here is too stupid to realize you’re trying to pull a fast one on them.
Fortunately, I’m not the idiot you think I am.
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only because you’ve moved the goalposts when you couldn’t win that argument with facts.
the people always ave that choice. they can protest, revolt, etc. Did the Bolsheviks just ask the Tsars to pretty please step aside?
I’m not the one ignoring facts, employing logical fallacies and hurling personal insults when I don’t “win” online arguments.
can’t argue with facts, so playskool insults it is. classy. no wonder I see he molding full of you getting posts and comments removed, and you’re totally banned form lemmy.world.
also explains this post https://lemmy.ml/post/2756876
I didn't move any goal posts. I said Hawaii is an occupied territory, and you came back with BuT ThEy HaD a RefErEnduM. Forgetting to mention that the referendum wasn't actually about independence and that the people of Hawaii were never given a choice of independence by their occupiers.
There is no false dichotomy here. It's hilarious seeing your comment history where you communicate through memes like a 5 year old child.
People in Hawaii are revolting against your regime as we speak.
The facts are that you made false claim and now you don't even have the decency to admit it. No point having further discussion with a liar.
love living rent free in your collective heads
“nuh-uh!” isn’t a very convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.
see my previous reply
a handful of protesters is hardly a “revolt”, but you’re adorable for thinking “big”.
the last thing you have is a grasp on the facts. your comment an post history are proof enough of that, with a long history of bans, deleted comments, and verbally being drummed you of most places you visit or being a toxic mess.
how sad for you
Do feel free to articulate which goal posts you're claiming that I moved. Be specific.
I did, it's nonsensical.
Way to dismiss majority of the native population. I guess that's what you'd expect from racist occupiers.
Wow interesting narrative you made up about me there. Maybe send me of whatever drugs you're having while hallucinating these things, cause that sounds like some good shit.
Nah, it's free entertainment for me kddio.
I already have, in detail. sealioning as you last line of attack? boring…
I’m not responsible for your lack of comprehension.
anyone is free to look at your comment history or the modlogs. no drugs necessary. how like you to hurl insult - yet again - when confronted with facts you can’t refute.
not very convincing….
You have not done any such thing, but I guess lying is all you've been doing here, so that's par for the course.
“nuh-uh!” isn’t a very convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.
“I know you are but what am I?” isn’t a very convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.
Whatever you say colonizer.
ooo, more name-calling. still “entertained”? lmao
You're literally defending why it's justified for US to occupy Hawaii in this thread colonizer. I'm very much entertained by you publicly debasing yourself here. Hope you made enough FICO score points to buy yourself food tonight.
I merely presented facts you didn’t like, so you’re lying about what I said (even though anyone can scroll up and see you’re lying and what I actually said) just because you have no argument other than to hurl insults.
then you’re experiencing hallucinations, as the facts don’t correspond to your experience.
whatever that means…. I buy food with money I earn from work.
If by presented facts you mean lied then sure.
What you presented was a referendum that wasn't done exclusively amongst the indigenous population whose land your regime occupied, and that wasn't about independence at all.
That's the only actual straw man in this thread.
And now you just keep spamming here instead of admitting that you are a liar, but anybody can read this thread and see that you are full of shit.
at a troll farm
🤡
since, after multiple accusations, you STILL can’t show evidence of this without either putting words in my mouth or outright lying (which I point out every time, as the comments above prove), it’s a bit f a joke now when you say this.
moving the goalposts doesn’t change the facts, which I have laid out and explained detail above already. repeating the same logical fallacies over and over won’t make them magically come true.
if you don’t like it when I call out your repeated BS every time you reply with false accusations, childish insults, logical fallacies, and outright lies, then you cans top any time. facing the consequences of your actions is not a a state of victimhood.
oh, I thought you loved Russians and the fine work they do!
lmao
lmao I love how you think that if you just keep repeating bullshit enough times it'll be true, what an utter clown you are
it’s interesting how simply hearing the facts repeated angers you so much, right to the point of tantrums and hurling insults. Hardly a position from which to argue that your is the reasonable point, or the factual one, especially since you have no facts.
You'd think people would at least have the decency to keep their mouth shut right now.
I mean Biden only offered them like $700. Who knows when they'll get that, if at all!
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Amazing that @whiskeypickle@lemmy.ml, who is also a fan of those weird debate fallacy images, posted this in another thread today:
Also this, also from today:
You also posted that second one, verbatim, this afternoon as @adroidBalloon@lemmy.ml.
You're the same person, aren't you?
Edit: Lol you even responded to an argument in this thread while still logged in to @whiskeypickle@lemmy.ml, then deleted it because someone noticed.
lol i was just about to mention this
http://lemmy.ml/u/bauhaus
is clearly part of the same group of alt accounts.
@yogthos@lemmygrad.ml @yogthos@lemmy.ml Check this out lmao. I don't think all the traffic going to that threat of haters is organic man
absolutely incredible stuff
I wish them a swift recovery from whatever this is exactly!!!
@Rumblestiltskin@lemmy.ml @AgreeableLandscape@lemmy.ml
Sorry to bother you two, but it's pretty clear we have someone running maybe six different alts, and it looks like they're boosting each one with votes from the others. Is that allowed here? See the comment I'm replying to and the comment it replied to for evidence.
it’s not amazing that I can copy and paste images I see in other comment threads. especially when they work well… I even say that’s what I did in several comments.
it’s sad that, rather than seeing that you’re wrong, you invent conspiracies, lmao. you’re not that important
No one's buying it, you know that, right?
Whhaaaa??? you mean to say that a brigading band of angry trolls from two of the most toxic instances in the fediverse remain unconvinced by facts and logic??? GASP!!
No, I'm talking about the one angry troll pretending to be six different people who is being toxic in this thread.
That's you, since you seem to have trouble understanding things that aren't spelled out for you (or for that matter, things that are).
You're committing a strawman fallacy, or a false equivalence, or a false dichotomy, whatever, take your pick. You don't know the difference, anyway.
right, because the only way some could disagree with or object to a brigade of angry trolls from hexbear is because of some “conspiracy” you can’t prove.
lol
“I know you are but what am I?” doesn’t make a convincing argument. most people learn that when they’re 5.
No, you're right, it's much more likely that several different users are all doing the same "everything you say is a logical fallacy" shtick, using the exact same Philosophy 101 infographics for these alleged logical fallacies in their posts, all completely failing to understand the logical fallacies they're accusing others of committing, all using the same arguments verbatim, have all been active in the last five hours, all have comment scores that immediately shoot up to 7 after a few minutes, all have posts in the same Star Trek comm where one of the accounts just happens to be a mod, and are all acting like all around shithead trolls everywhere they go. Nope, clearly totally separate people, must be a conspiracy.
Again, no one's buying it.
Honestly I kind of pity you. How bad is your life that you have to sit here for hours on the internet with several different accounts just being a shithead everywhere and just keep arguing with people like a child? It's really pathetic. Get off the computer, go outside, go talk to people.
yeah, because google exists and copy/paste exist everywhere but on whatever planet you’re from. You guys should get on that.
it’s been my experience that bullies like to blame others for the consequences they face rather then accept them.
Is that why you're still denying all of your alts?
Go ahead and take a few minutes to respond, I know you're engaged in several other discussions right now on your other accounts.
I’m very sorry for your troubles. just so you know, professional help is available in your area.
best of luck with that
Come on, you can do better than that. What happened to all your infographics about random fallacies? Those are hilarious.
you’re free to troll someone else. all your bottled up rage has to go somewhere, right? it’s not like you know how to deal with it in a healthy way, or you wouldn’t be here proving that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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lol, you’re funny.
In me experience, and especially with those who’ve been accused of projection in the past, a really good tell of someone’s insecurity is the good ol’ “you’re projecting” line. see, it’s something a psychologist wouldn’t really be able to diagnose until they’d met and interviewed a person, but with online trolls and bullies, it’s a pretty easy tell that they, in fact, are the ones projecting.
you’re pretty sloppy at trolling, and you give yourself away a lot. oh, and beyond wasting bth of our time, you really haven’t done anything but make yourself very upset. I’ve enjoyed serveral films.
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must be ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
you know that “projection” thing you were talking about? 😄
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your life must be pretty dull if all you can do is spend time imagining conspiracies against, you. and such boring conspiracies…
edit: I wonder… if you told someone your little theory, do you think they’d think you were making it up, or just shocked at how pathetic it was you gave a crap?"
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because I know what th word means. don’t fear knowledge, kid. knowledge is super!
jumping straight tp paranoid conspiracy rather than considering that your trolling is unpopular isn’t what most would consider rational.
I’m sorry that you really want to talk about your dad, but I’m not your therapist.
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then I suppose “paranoid delusion” is more appropriate.
I’m sorry to hear of your troubled childhood
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kinda supports my argument that you’re a troll if this is your idea of fun.
[X] DOUBT
if that were true, you wouldn't have spent hours here trying to convince me of the weird things going on in your head.
at last, some self-reflection, even if it’s reflecting off of me…. (ya know, that projection thing you mentioned earlier…) also, best of luck with your dad!
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How about you shut the fuck up, on however many accounts you're running
such hate, such anger, and not a very good imagination.
I’m glad I’m not you.
I don't think about you at all
lol, proven by your repeated angry replies.
edit: before you get your conspiracy hallucinations going, you posted a comment that pinged my notification, so I saw this thread.
sure ya don't
yo, hit me an infographic for the 'ligma' fallacy if you have one.
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seems like they struck a nerve if you're this bent out of shape defending one of the US colonial occupations- I get that it's strategically important to have a military base right smack in the middle of the pacific, but come on don't be a ghoul.
that’s some imagination you got there, lol
The choice was to become a state or remain a territory. Either yes or no would have had Hawaiian peoples occupied. Statehood could be seen as a regaining a scrap of self determination but all it ended up doing was impoverishing the natives and ceding all wealth to colonizing capitalists. This is a primarily function of bourgeois democracy.
by voting to become a state - especially to such an overwhelming majority - you can hardly argue a dispositive attitude towards the US being there or towards joining the union. so, not only have you moved the goalposts, you’re arguing a straw man and your own emotions.
I’m sticking with provable facts.
Once again they were given a choice between becoming a state or remaining a territory. Not for independence. It'd be like offering a scrap of bread to a starving man in exchange for the man legitimizing your ability to keep him malnourished.
The ole adage of "the only thing worse than being exploited is not being exploited " comes to mind.
Since you can't be assed to read your own damn wiki article I assume you're just in bad faith.
Hawaiians could have protested, revolted, or one of many other options. But they didn’t.
That’s the thing about facts— your opinions don’t magically make them untrue, regardless of how many folksy sayings or logical fallacies you conjure.
Like the Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement which began actively protesting and gained support in the 1960s, pretty soon after the referendum?
sure. why not? people can object to or protest anything.
the fee expression of speech in a democratic forum, however, certainly argues against any of this being “fascist”, though. thanks of pointing this out!
So then your point about
Is false
So to quote you
only if you intentionally take them out of context and twist the meaning. because they didn’t do that before the vote. as you said:
so, despite your obviously bad-faith and disingenuous argument, I’m not as stupid as you think I am. nice try.
That’s the thing about facts— your opinions don’t magically make them untrue, regardless of how many folksy sayings or logical fallacies you conjure. NOR how much you try to twist my words.
Nice job replying on your other account first lol, are you in here upvoting yourself too?
They even use the same dumbass fallacy images. That is so sad and lame.
maybe a rogue lib AI escaped confinment 😂
you’re this desperate? wow
you’ll do anything but make a rational argument based on facts.
I dunno what to tell you dawg if you can't understand that a referendum of Hawaiian residents from 1959 doesn't represent the opinions of Native Hawaiians after 60 years of American control and immigration to the island. If you're so into facts and stats you should know a representative measure of their opinion could only be done through a survey of Native Hawaiians
even if it were relevant then it isn’t now just because you’re angry about… whatever.
well, why don’t you do that and come back when YOU have some relevant facts to present, and we can talk again.
Okay we're in a thread talking about how Native Hawaiians feel about the American government. I actually want to know why you are arguing this point and what you feel it accomplishes, in genuine good faith. Like are you Native Hawaiian, do you like in Hawaii, do you just like the idea of being able to visit Hawaii without a passport, or is there some other reason?
For me, I'm arguing this because I believe Indigenous people around the world have a right to self governance and freedom from colonial occupiers. So what's your reason?
due to your amnesia, I’ll remind you that this is how it started:
once the facts were presented, goalposts were moved to “native” Hawaiians because the argument couldn’t be “won" without that straw man, and I’ve been posting that out since.
I doubt that, as I’ve made this clear many, many times, and you keep ignoring it.
not only is my personal information irrelevant, I’d be pretty stupid to give someone like you any personal details that you’d very obviously weaponize against me at your first opportunity. as I’ve said before, I’m not as stupid as you think I am.
no, you’re here to “win” because you hate the US and think I’m your enemy. i've seen your comment history. I sonly presented facts and you and your cohorts don’t like the facts as they clash with your ideology, so you attack me rater than argue the facts rationally. It’s hostile, toxic bullying, and the mere suggestion that you’re interested in god-faith discussion outside of your own echo chamber is a joke.
Alright I tried doing this on your terms, peace
if that were true, you would have argued honestly, with the facts, and in good faith. I have demonstrated, many, many time, how you have not. again, you lie to comfort yourself against facts you refuse to accept.
best of luck with that.
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🐷 💩 🥎
Lol your mind sure is something.
spoiler
What if 90% of Hawaiians had revolted (and lost) while 90%+ of the other 10% of Hawaiians voted in the referendum?
You’re the one reducing possibilities. Your dichotomy is between staying a territory and becoming a state. While being a state is nominally better than being outright occupied subjects, prior to colonization they were better off, and you suggest decolonization and not being colonized aren’t options.
I never made this argument, but several others here did. in fact, I, several times, pointed out that there were other possibilities.
clearly you’re confused.
Should I kill you with my sword or with my gun?
Sorry, "I want to live" was not an option on the ballot
sigh…
Referendum is literally: "Would you like to be a state or a territory? Independence is not an option."
Sigh...
False dichotomy is when you point out that people might want something other than two shit binary choices.
your lack of ability to imagine another option (such as revolt, etc.) does not mean you “win” the argument. it just means you lose because you lack imagination.
YOUR ARGUMENT is that the result of this referendum matters. It doesn't because, as you've identified, both options are the same. As for Hawaiian resistance, they've been fighting continuously for a hundred years and, like every other liberation movement against the USA, have been ruthlessly suppressed by the fascist police and petty-bourgeoise militia of the "middle class". And, like every other liberation struggle, victory is inevitable as the empire continues to crumble beneath the weight of its sins.
Also, neat how you've got five devoted followers upvoting you within two minutes on every one of your shitty empire-shilling posts for the last several hours
But no down votes!
Yeah I've seen at least two of this dork's alts posting the same dumb infographics of logical fallacies that they themselves are committing without a hint of irony.
The FACTS bear that out. you’re attacking me because I pointed that out.
I didn’t say that, you did. keep your words out of my mouth.
relevant to the argument, and a
you guys are addicted to logical fallacies
cute story. also irrelevant
jealousy is an ugly look
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Hawaiian_Kingdom
note the dates. it was forcibly annexed by a coup government. the later vote to join as a state took place well afterwards
the facts don’t support your assertions. even if they did, it’s irrelevant because….
just as I said and the facts I gave support. since 94% of people voted to become a state, no rational person would call it an “occupation”.
lmao you illiterate jackass. a sham vote to join a nation that overthrew your actual government by a bunch of people who moved there specifically to move the needle on that exact vote means nothing. christ, you liberals really love white nationalism as much as the flag fuckers do
says the troll
trolling is when you know more about history than your average liberal white supremacist
says the troll
Hi guys I'm sorry but this is one of my alts along with @OkToBeTakei@lemm.ee @whiskeypickle@lemmy.ml @BrooklynMan@lemmy.ml and @bauhaus@lemmy.ml. They're misbehaving and acting like a
*removed externally hosted image*
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what? didn’t you just comment on the Star Trek sub? what is this?
are you serious? lol
*removed externally hosted image*
I'm sorry everyone. My alt is trying very hard to gaslight everyone into thinking they are not my alt.
look, I don’t know what your problem is, but you need to get a hobby, kid, lmao
Man it must be exhausting commenting with all these different accounts. also:
*removed externally hosted image*
look how hard you’re working
*removed externally hosted image*
still going. gotcha
True, just clarifying the best case scenario. Did the Hawaiian people recently vote to leave the union that I am unaware of?
When did they vote to join? They fought pretty hard to keep their rightfully elected government.
in 1959, with a 93%+ majority:
(source)
(source)
I think it's more than a little dishonest to say that the native Hawaiians voted for this. At the time of this referendum, they composed about 15% of the population and their culture and identity had been suppressed for generations.
The US government even admitted in 1993 that the native people never agreed to this.
almost as dishonest as claiming is said something I didn’t and then moving the goalposts to win an argument…
irrelevant. sad, but irrelevant. thy got to vote, just like anyone else, and, even by your numbers, 2/3 of THAT population voted for statehood.
that’s not what that says, but it’s nice to know how easy it is for you to lie to try to get ahead in an argument. “winning” online debates must be very important for you.
Swarming lands with your settlers and then claiming b-but they muh voted for it, is peak lib cracker imperialism. The french did the same in New Caledonia.
Don't forget about saying the settlers have a legitimate say on what happens to Hawaii.
so, when you can’t argue with facts, you rest to redefining words, personal insults, and racist slurs.
classy
I didn’t argue with you, I made clear statements about your nature and your character. Its up to you to change that and if you refuse, well thats just proves me right in the end.
yeah, that’s why I said “when you can’t argue…”
you had a tantrum and hurtled racist slurs and insults
you’e right because you have racist tantrums and can’t make rational, fact-based arguments? interesting take...
93% of natives or all inhabitants?
as you can clearly see,
Not al residents are natives, right? So what % of natives voted in favor?
so, now you’re moving the goalposts because you didn’t like the answer...
Check title of this post. Do you see the word "native" there? In the title of this post that we're commenting in? "Native"? You see it?
I see the comment I replied to, the context and words used, and how it was changed to suit an argument once the facts became inconvenient.
perhaps you should pay closer attention to the conversation before you jump in unprepared.
Perhaps it was you that didn't pay attention to the title in the first place? Perhaps it's you that is raising the goal post? Perhaps, now that two different people explained to you that "people who live there" clearly meant "natives" it's time to acknowledge your mistake? Perhaps now that you've been explained what "occupation" means it's time to stop pretending we're talking about something else entirely?
see, I have proof, you have madboi rage you can’t process like a healthy person, so you direct it outwards at the person who pointed out - with evidence - that you’re wrong. classy.
you mean “moved the goalposts when they could win an argument and on facts”. lying now when there’s plenty f evidence here proving that you’re lying is a pretty bad way to try to convince someone of something.
I don’t need a bunch of angry trolls who can’ open their mouths without lies, rage, childish insults, and logical fallacies falling out to “explain” anything to me.
I'm pretty sure you understand what we're talking about here: what Native Hawaiians think about being part of the US. Your argument was that once native Hawaiians became minority there was a vote and the majority of immigrant, non-native inhabitants voted to legalize it's status so it's OK. I pointed out, that since we're taking about Native Hawaiians it doesn't really matter how non-natives voted on it. Instead of addressing this you just started using the old argument of "look only on the literal meaning of this comment and ignore the whole point of this discussion". And now here we are. You're angry and rejecting all arguments because being right about one phrase is more important to you than actually talking about this issue. Ok, so you win. You win the pointless discussion about one comment. Are you happy now? Can we now go back to the original point and talk about native Hawaiians? Or you're not actually interested in the topic and are here only to do some light trolling?
I’m pretty sure I see through your logical fallacies and am not buying your mental gymnastics to cover for them.
this isn’t about “winning” just because that’s how you see the world, although I would categorically say that you’ve lost. lost time, lost face, and certainly lost your mind if you think you’ve won anything here.
says the troll, lmao
Yes, you're really smart and you're crashing this online argument. You're logic is impeccable and you're arguments are flawless. I give up, you win!
Changing the subject now, completely unrelated question: do you know how native Hawaiians feel about being part of the US?
it’s sad this is the only way you can see the world. it explains your trolling.
why would I engage in a discussion with a troll, knowing full well you have no problem lying, twisting my words, and using very logical fallacy in the book?
Ok, so you know you're wrong and will now avoid meaningful discussion by using some silly arguments. Cool. Cheers!
oh, the lies you tell yourself… how funny
The discussion is about US OCCUPYING Hawaii. Imagine thinking that a referendum of the occupiers on whether they want to keep occupying is a valid way to decide whether people who have bee OCCUPIED agree with the occupation. It's like if I moved into your house and put a gun to your head, and then ran a referendum to see if I should stay there.
The fact that you don't understand how idiotic your argument is shows what an utter imbecile you are.
WRONG. you changed the subject to a straw man argument when you couldn’t argue the facts in good faith. Right here:
going by your comment history, logical fallacies are something you’re an expert at wielding and often get comments removed and your account banned for it (and or your habit of throwing insult-ridden tantrums when your bad-faith tactics fail)
oh, look, more childish name-calling because you can’t argue in good faith based on the facts, and I’m some idiot who will fall fr your little tricks.
I see you have reading comprehension problems, which I guess is no surprise given that you communicate almost exclusively in children's pictures. The quote you screenshotted very clearly talks about the native population of Hawaii. You know the people who live there, not the people who are occupying them. Imagine not being able to understand that.
Sounds like you're talking about yourself there colonizer.
I'm just making a basic observation about your level of intelligence based on your comment history. You are objectively an imbecile. This isn't me trying to insult you, that's just a basic fact.
more insults not based in fact. just because I don’t fall for your countless logical fallacies and outright lies - all of which I’ve posted out and explained in detail - doesn’t mean I have any problems reading or comprehending. you’re just mad I keep calling you out. hence the insults.
and if you can’t even win an augment against “children’s pictures”… well, that’s certainly a self-own, as far as I’m concerned.
“I know you are but what am I?” is not a convincing argument. most people learn this when they’re 5.
you’re hurling insults because you’re mad, and can’t make an argument based on the facts. but keep trying to convince me you’re “entertained” while throwing name-calling tantrums, lmao
🤡
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Can I ask you something? And this is me being genuine here, because I'm clearly out of the loop, but what is it about communism that you think is really great? Just forget about the capitalist propaganda comments, I want your genuine opinion, why is it great and what drew you to it?
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You can choose not to answer and I respect that, I've seen you guys post around here a lot. While I have in the past tried to avoid those conversations, I've simply never given any of you a chance to speak your mind. Do I believe there are people on lemmy that just want to troll? Absolutely! There's people like that everywhere, I'm simply trying to understand your perspective because I've never engaged in the subject, now I'm intrigued. I've gotten to a point where I just have to know what drives you and why. Answer if you want or ignore me, I won't harass you about it. I'm just trying to give you a chance to speak and explain so I can better understand. There's no trickery here, I promise.
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Wow, that's a wild point of view. Thank you for sharing, that's actually really fascinating to see things from another perspective. Unfortunately I don't think I would ever agree to follow in those world views, but I respect your right to believe them and that's realistically what both sides need to achieve, mutual respect. So thanks.
Why don't you read some communist literature? There's 150 years worth of recommendations on almost every conceivable topic from many countries and in many languages. Almost all of us started as liberals until we read something that changed our minds. Once a Marxist has explained capitalism, there's almost no chance of going back (although some do, and they tend to become the worst type of monster).
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Probably not with the US around. It's never let any other country live in quiet peace and prosperity. It's always worth being optimistic, though.
They did before they were conquered. Why is that so hard to imagine now?
Hawaii was annexed in 1898. So, why dredge up anger at the conquest over 100 years later?
First of all, that's not at all a reasonable reply to my comment. Second, how the hell do you have the gall to openly post this fascist garbage for all the world to see?
they voted to become a state in 1959, with a 93%+ majority. how is that “fascist” just because you disagree with it?
(source)
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Because you are saying it was 100 years ago, so your crimes no longer matter. The holocaust is coming up on 100 years ago now as well. I'm guessing that all the peoples murdered by the Nazis should just get over it and start loving the fascists now as well?
As for your garbage referendum, see my reply to your other post with this garbage.
YOU are saying that, not me. keep your words out of my mouth.
“I don’t like it, so I’m going to call it names!”
grow up
I confused you with the other fascist above, whose post I was replying to.
You're just here sealioning on an attempt to justify ethnic cleansing. The Holocaust comparison is NOT a false equivalence by the way. Hitler was inspired by the US.
Really tempted to give this individual the PPBs...
I already blocked him. I'm native and I'm somewhat used to hearing this nonsense. But it still doesn't do good things for me, and he has nothing useful to say anyway. It's all debate perversion with a hard on for colonialism. Anyone with half a brain should be able to see that it's just a lame attempt to justify the subjugation of Hawaii.
Any situation that began with land being stolen from native people via coup and gun-point means anything thereafter is a colonial and imperialist action that creates easily understandable echos of inequality and suffering. For instance lots of Native populations being unable to afford their land, or having to exist as permanent renters, and then also having to suffer ecological consequences such as guinea grass (imported by colonial cattle ranchers into Hawaii that now dries out and burns easily yet has not been removed) causing wild fires that burn entire communities (not to forget the blackrock owned electric company having shitty ill maintained equipment around such communities).
They're running multiple accounts pushing the same reactionary garbage, with the same little debate fallacy pictures, and even the same obnoxious "most people learn this when they're 5" bit.
Ah, mods need to do some clearing out then
One would hope.
This article doesn’t even mention Hawaii, colonialism, or anything related to it. It speaks of Hitler’s inspiration drawn from slavery and ideas of race superiority towards black people. Not only did you obviously just google “Hitler US inspiration” to cherry-pick something about Hitler, you clearly neither read it or have any understanding of the material.
so, yeah, it’s a false equivalence AND now you're
lol, no, this is not actually the land of endless aloha even among the natives
Judging by their history, probably not. Just like people's everywhere, Hawaiians have a very violent history full of warfare!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nu%CA%BBuanu