I didn't click the link because I don't want to give them views. Unlimited WHATABOUTISM replies when you point out the United States is currently dealing with Bird Flu, Listeria, and more covid variants because Americans won't mask, vaccinate, or quarantine.
It wasn't really shoved under a rug it was reported by many mainstream sources. All the report says is that covid was found in wastewater in 2 Italian towns in December 2019, before any cases were reported in China. That isn't really a smoking gun that it started in Italy, as December 2019 was also before Italy reported any cases.
What it indicates is that it was likely spreading before people knew it was a thing, which is interesting but shouldn't be that surprising for a novel infectious disease.
I guess I'm just not sure why if it was in both China and Italy in December '19, everyone is so sure it started in China? Like the reason people think it started in China is that that's where it was first detected right?
EDIT: I don't even believe it didn't come from China, because if this line of reasoning was correct, I'd expect China to have pointed it out more (in the vein of "The moon landing wasn't fake because it was, the Soviet Union would have said something"), but I'm just not sure why it's wrong.
it was reported in spain waste water in march 2019
Okay I think this may have been the one I was thinking of
This isn't even evidence that it didn't start in China. If the report stated that covid was found in wastewater samples in Italy before similarly dated wastewater samples in Wuhan that would at least be evidence, still there'd need to be much more evidence to support a theory
Right but what is the evidence that it did start in China? Is there a reason other than "that's where we started noticing it first?"
I'm being sincere here, not Ft Detrick memeing
Afaik researchers are nearly 100% sure that Covid evolved from bat coronaviruses in Southeast Asia. So the virus would first spill over into humans there. Being that Wuhan has some of the earliest confirmed cases, it makes since it would start there or thereabouts. I haven’t read too much on this but that’s what I understand.
Obviously it could have started elsewhere if Covid was artificially created from those bat coronaviruses in a lab (which is where the various lab leak conspiracies come from). And some wastewater samples question the consensus view of things, although they don’t necessarily provide an alternative explanation and Covid might’ve been spreading earlier than we know. But I don’t believe there’s any doubt that it evolved in some way from bat coronaviruses in Southeast Asia-so if natural origins is the case, then it had to have started there
Okay that makes a lot of sense, if it clearly evolved from existing viruses in another species, it needs to have come from where that species is living with that virus.
I don't think I saw it anywhere in this thread, so I'll point it out here: covid is a variant of SARS. SARS likely originated among cave bats in China and spread once humans came into contact with them.
SARS was identified in 2003 when a major outbreak occurred. It spread to numerous countries, including the US, Canada, France, and South Africa. It had nearly 20 years to mutate into covid-19 in a variety of locations. For all we know, it jumped to another species of bat in Europe or the US then caused the pandemic in 2019.
Do you have a source for this stuff? I’m not an expert by a long shot, but I’ve never read anything suggesting that sars-cov-2 was descended from sars-cov-1, in fact most things I’ve read say they are completely different lineages.
Only what I've seen on Wikipedia and in news reports when the pandemic hit. I'm no expert on viruses, either. As far as I know, there hasn't been any conclusions about where covid-19 evolved.
I just think western media tries to blame too much on China without much evidence themselves. We could be in a similar situation like the Spanish Flu, which started in Kansas but no one reported it until it hit Spain. China may be the first to report both SARS and covid-19, but may not be the origin of one or both. The virus could have easily started in Vietnam or Cambodia, for example.
Afaik the direct ancestor hasn’t been found, but every coronavirus from which Covid-19 evolved comes from Southeast Asia. SARS splits off a bit before evolution into Covid-19 so the one can’t be descended from the other.
That’s my understanding at least. Vietnam, Cambodia, anywhere in that region I’m willing to accept, but beyond that I think you need lab leak to make the theory work. Fort Detrick I’m not opposed to but there are mountains of evidence pointing to natural origins and calling into question not just lab leak from China, but lab leak in general, so I’m more inclined towards natural origins.
Looking into this more rn it seems another reason China was identified as the origin point is because initially that was where we found COVID’s closest known relative - in Yunnan specifically. However it seems that even closer relatives have now been found in Laos. Still not a direct ancestor, but you might be right that Covid didn’t originate in China itself.