L'année dernière le sujet a été abordés par @AlexisFR@jlai.lu et je souhaite relancé l'idée de dé-fédérer de cette instance.
Je navigue depuis quelque temps sans bloquer la moindre instances question de simuler un peu l'expérience de quelqu'un qui rejoint le fediverse via l'instance jlai.lu.
Les posts qui apparaissent dans le fil et le comportement de la plupart des usagers de cette instance pollue tout simplement l'expérience Lemmy.
Même sans parler de possible liens avec CCP, Kremlin etc... je pense que, à mon humble avis, leur comportement et leur façons de brigader et de diffamer une opinion qui ne diverge que d'à peine d'un poil de leur courant de penser, va sincèrement à l'encontre de l'état d'esprit de notre communauté sur cette instance.
Je me suis opposé sans vraiment me prononcer l'année dernière à une dé-fédération (étant donné qu'ils ne sont pas francophone et que j'aime bien le drama inter-instances de temps temps) mais leurs prises de positions en permanence ahurissantes et (en pesant mes mots au maximum) d'une flagrante dissonance cognitive je dois dire que trop c'est trop.
Je pense sincèrement que malgré le fait nos intéractions soit assez minimes avec cette instance je pense que sur le long terme leur influence est nocive et que, dans l'idée de garder une certaines sérénité pour les personnes et futures personnes qui utiliseront cette instance, qu'il y ai une dé-fédération de cette instance de la notre.
From a google translate of the post, it looks like general vague slander from OP, even other instance users are asking for examples from OP.
The linked post is ableist, it uses the word MAGA---- as a derogatory term, and there are conspiracy theories about CPC connection, as well as general anticommunism, which is linked to fascism historically (I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds).
Yeah, it has been pointed out below indeed.
On the other hand, while OP should indeed provide answers, why would HappyBadger accuse this instance of being fascist? OP only made a proposition, and other instance members immediately asked for evidence to support that proposal.
You could ask me directly instead of whatever this is.
I accused this user of being a fascist. If 12 people are seated at a table with 1 fascist, tell me how many fascists are seated at that table.
This user is a fascist because they're doing the same generic anticommunism routine that all of the right-wing forums do. Create an anticommunist hysteria around a nonsensical boogeyman, widen the net as the next person they disagree with is also part of the sneaky non-white conspiracy against them, ratchet the community rightward. That specific process is why reddit is reddit. If someone's doing the same old trick on the Fediverse, I don't care if it's this forum with 8 monthly users I've never seen before or Lemmy.world/Lemm.ee with fresh content feeds. It attracts the same people and ends in the same place.
This goober thinks they're being gangstalked by Russian spies because someone on the internet disagreed with 𝓉𝒽𝑒𝒾𝓇 𝓅𝑜𝓈𝒾𝓉𝒾𝑜𝓃. Before you clutch your pearls about me calling them a fascist, the first question you should be asking is what that position is and what's so offensive about the Hexbear stance on it. Generally if we hate someone or something there's a pretty good reason for it.
Tbh, your agressive terminally online ketamine fulled diatribe does not help in giving a good picture of the instance you're defending.
Luckily, being a tanky ironically or not is not enough to warrant de-federating from an instance.
You've convinced everyone with an attention span too short to read their comment and believe they can get the gist by reading the shorter response.
Anyone who actually read their comment and your description rightly see you as cowardly, stupid, and unhinged.
Your backhanded way of avoiding an argument is to paint their comment in a certain light and ignore its content. I haven't seen anyone say this obvious truth out loud yet so I will.
The point is that there is no argument in the first place, no one here intends to defederate from hexbear, and you and your mates coming here aggressively and acting like unhinged assholes unprompted in a meta-instance discussion does not help.
This post is just OP having his jimmies rumbled and asking if because of it if can cut one of the oldest instance from our fedlist.
For someone now saying there isn't an argument, you sure did use three consecutive angry adjectives in the same sentence to respond to their comment.
You've got quite the imbalance of nerve and self reflection, crying about people being aggressive and acting like unhinged assholes after how you just acted.
All you do is illustrate how profoundly meaningless your words are. You use the same invective to someone being reasonable as you do someone scolding you.
You should have realized that I adapt my tone to the one I respond to, by like, reading?
I don't think we have the same definition of reasonable, might have been lost in translation I guess.
See? You literally just say shit that has no connection to reality. Here you claim to read. You have proven to everyone that you do not. Not only by your ignorant handling of the original comment you replied to, but also now by ignoring both my statement and reasoning behind pointing out that you DO NOT adapt your tone to the one you're responding to!
Nothing you say means anything because everything you say is predetermined by your attitude alone. You don't read. Even if you did it would have no effect on what your opinion or response is. It has been shown now twice.
wew lad, this must be shit tier bait
I no longer feel sympathy towards the french for 'le meme' because it turns out that's actually how you act
Kinda cringe than in all french history, that's what it took you.
Ah oui quand même
J'ai pas vu d'aussi beau troll depuis des années. Faut dire que je suis devenu bon à les éviter mais notre pauvre admin vient de se prendre celui en plein le coin de l’œil.
"Pauvre" admin. C'est un des meilleurs ippon de jlai.lu, un Teddy Reiner, amha ça le gonfle et l'amuse 😁
Everyone I don't agree with is on drugs (which makes them an inferior person not worth listening to), a definitely-not-fascist bedtime story for smug internet liberals.
To be fair I'd love to write ketamine-fueled rants but it costs like $500 for a dose here. The best I can offer is coffee and sometimes-cannabis-fueled.
You should try TOR marketplaces.
Not only do I disagree with OP and therefore agree with with your mate, but I don't have any issue with drug use.
My issue is with the fact that ketamine fulled drivel is not the best way to communicate with people and be correctly understood, speaking from experience.
Nah, that's the kind of weak dodge I would use back when I was a liberal casually saying ghoulish dork shit. If you use "ur prolly on drugs lol" to dismiss the argument of someone who is speaking with perfect clarity, you're just being a little snotty fuck looking for any excuse not to take in scary new information that might make you feel bad.
Sure bro 👍
I already said I want to defederate with you. You get a pass on engaging with this comment because English is your second language.
You're not leaving me, I'm leaving you!
I would have made my own post first but didn't know you exist until this post. Then I agreed with it. A more apt analogy would be getting a random text saying "I'm breaking up with you" and replying "ok".
An actually apt analogy would be one of your theater club mate receiving a text advising to leave the theater club because it's full of dubious people, your mate saying "lol no", and you sending a 10 pages pamphlet to the friend sending the text accusing them to be a fascist, completely unprompted.
The person who thinks non-whites are gangstalking them is on the same forum as the person who uses "tanky" as a slur against the only forum which strictly opposes all of the groups currently using tanks. I would ask how you see yourself ideologically, but you aren't making a good case for not being a fascist forum so that definition wouldn't mean much. Look at the company you keep. Who else online is obsessed with tankies and Asian conspiracies? Not the left-wing ones.
We have no post supporting capitalism. The whole server is critizing capitalism and supporting social and environnemental project.
It's great you have that perspective on it individually. You individually might be totally fine. I ask you the same question though: look at the company you keep. One of your mods, a full 1/8th of your monthly userbase, just used tankie as a slur. Against a forum that's... what? Too antizionist? Too antiracist? Too anti-imperialist? Too pro-LGBT? I still don't know either of their specific ideological disagreements with Hexbear and don't care. If I were you I'd be sceptical of people who use words the right-wing uses to describe the same enemies the right-wing has. A nebulous term like tankie can be used to condemn anyone. An out-group enemy that only exists through conspiracy theories can be used to condemn anyone. Neither can be specifically defined in the same way me using "liberal" or "fascist" as an in-group enemy can be. If you feel genuinely committed to something as radical as environmentalism, you're too radical for that forum and you'll be the tankie or the sneaky Asian spy when they run out of more radical candidates. I wouldn't want to be on Hexbear if people used language like that unironically.
How did you come to that number? Our total monthly userbase is 220 users per month for the instance.
I'm just going off the number on the sidebar when I'm viewing your instance through this one. Now it's diluted by this thread and it says 55 users/month, but when I first saw the thread it was at 8/month. Lemmy can be weird about syncing with other things so it might be that: https://i.imgur.com/ODSkS0n.png .
Yeah those counters are usually quite inaccurate, you always have to check on the source instance to be sure.
May i convaince you otherwise about this mod ? Here is Anansi (sysop) answer to TheFirish :
We had another post about defederating Hexbear long before, almost one year ago where TGhost, thank to her, talked to anansi and convainced him to keep the federation with hexbear.
If you can comment here, and see our posts that's due to @anansi's decision and @TGhost's argument.
Currently, in this thread, heated arguments, meme, trolling, wich are spreading to the whole lemmyverse aren't helping us. They are a fun thing to do but it often end up badly.
Anyway, i hope that translation and this historical decisions/fact from jlai.lu, can give you a new perspective on jlai.lu and anansi.
You can trust us and let us handle the situation.
Attention Snoopy, méfie-toi de nous, on est anti activisme environnemental 😆
I'm not saying you're anti-environmentalists. Plenty of liberals are environmentalists. I'm saying that I've seen two users, including a mod, use undefinable words that have one rhetorical purpose. You use a word like "tankie" or an idea like "all my enemies are foreign spies" to set a limit on dissent. I could ask that user what the specific line between a tankie and non-tankie is, but if that answer even makes sense then it sets a firm limit on how radical someone can be. I'm an eco-Marxist, I study it as closely as I can and work practically as one, the books on my shelf are mostly about what I'd consider part of an eco-Marxist critique. I understand environmentalism as a complex intersectional war of liberation. What part of that makes me a tankie versus the acceptable position? If there's preemptive surrender to power, if some part of that intersectional struggle is unacceptable or some act or idea or theorist is too far, I don't care how many paintings you've splashed with soup today.
Meh, I use tanky to differentiate between leftists and people that cosplay as leftist while excusing genocide and human rights violation whenever it's their flavor of autocrat doing it, not really as an anti-communist word since nobody uses it like that in the first place.
No, it sets a limit on how much you accept your fellow comrades from being used as a stepping tool by an authoritarian regime/dictator to be able to call yourself "communist", while ending up in state capitalism anyway.
I may concede that from my years on hexbear, I associate most participants to this kind of communism flavor by default, which may not be your case, but this thread did not really start in good faith, so why would I.
That is terrific, I'm glad that you are yourself anti-capitalist. I don't think the whole jlai.lu instance is, though, and at least one mod is apparently quite conservative.
If you're talking about me, that's kind of a funny way to see it I guess, albeit pretty dumb and most likely lacking in political history for it to be your guess.
The whole instance is not anti capitalistic but many of the most active users are and we have dedicated leftist and pro-tolerance communities. The instance is overtly antifascist, the few doubtful users that posted were kicked out promptly.
The feeling is also anti-authoritarian so tankies wouldn't feel at ease, but I dont think they'd be kicked out unless blatantly promoting imperialist / authoritarian agendas.
Well, i'm affraid language barriere doesn't help...and there is some part of misunderstanding and french's culture is different 😟
When we talk about PCC or the Kremlin, we are mainly critizing imperialism. We do make a clear line between communism and imperialism.
We also critize France, and our actions to change it is currently repressed by the police. We document it there. I don't read it, it depress me a lot and i have to care about myself.
https://jlai.lu/c/quefaitlapolice?
You can also check those communities :
You can also check @Frirish@jlai.lu posts.
He has expressed his point of view about hexbear but that doesn't represent our opinion until proven otherwise.
The first thing we (anyone, everyone not necessary the mod/admin team) do is talking to people (even modo, admin are included and can be demoted anytime) and pointing out what's wrong.
That's the first thing we did. We asked for source and pointed out it's normal that you would react here.
Then, we ask them to edit their post as a way to apologize.
The fuck you're talking about
>opens hexbear
>see a meme in the front page using the same rhetoric as Israel when it denies the palestinian genocide, to deny Uyghurs genocide by China
Kinda selective opposition I guess.
Look at the company you keep. Who else online is obsessed with genocide denial and defending authoritarian regimes? Not the left-wing ones.
Cool, the person who uses tankie as an insult is an Adrian Zenz fan and has a Nazi frog emoji on hand for logical gotchas.
Again you are not making a good case here. Snoopy's giving it their best, but you're setting off my
.
Nice dodge!
Everyone that disagrees with me must be on drugs or a russian puppet or mentally ill.
Fuck all the way off. Go ahead defederate, clearly nothing of value is lost.
tErMiNaLlY OnLiNe
kinda yeah
👍
Removed by mod
I asked Cowbee because we had been discussing recently how interactions between Hexbear and other instances sometimes play out, so I thought it would be relevant to have their perspective on this example.
About the rest of your arguments, seems to have been addressed in this comment: https://hexbear.net/post/3694795/5510986
Explain this rhetorical trick to me.
https://hexbear.net/post/3694795/5511100
Do you think my grandma would be a bicycle if she had tyres instead of legs?
Going back to the thing that did actually happen, take two:
Explain this rhetorical trick to me.
The correct pun is "if my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike" btw
Yes but I'm formatting it in the same way as the comment they link.
Lapin compris. Tu peux expliquer ?
C'est un passage dans un talk show américain de cuisine, où un chef italien (Gigi D'Acampo) propose de faire une sorte de gratin (je me rappelle plus du plat). Une présentatrice dit à un moment un truc du genre "si on rajoutait [un ingrédient] ça ressemblerait à [un autre plat qui n'a rien a voir], forcément le chef est choqué et il lâche cette phrase pour montrer le ridicule de la phrase "si ma grand mère avait des roues elle serait une bicyclette"
Un lien youtube vers la séquence : https://youtu.be/OplyHCIBmfE
Très instructif. Merci.
Merci pour cette vidéo 😂😂😂
The linked post is ableist, it uses the word MAGA---- as a derogatory term, and there are conspiracy theories about CPC connection, as well as general anticommunism, which is linked to fascism historically (I recommend reading Blackshirts and Reds).
The comment accused the user of fascism, not necessarily the instance.
Hello,
Thank you for commenting here.
The linked post is there for context, no decision was made at the time, we remained federated with hexbear. We are going to ask the author of that post to edit it.
For OP, not sure if things got lost in translation, but their point was that "Even without talking about possible links with CCP, Kremlin etc… I think that, in my humble opinion, their behavior and their ways of brigading and defaming an opinion that diverges only slightly from their current of thought, sincerely goes against the state of mind of our community on this instance."
So the CPC theories are irrelevant, as OP is strictly referring about brigading
Not sure why this deserves to be qualified as fascist.
I have no interest in debating the broader issue, but your bolding here is silly:
The idea of us being connected to either group is a harebrained conspiracy theory, so I think speaking of it as though it is credible while saying you won't talk about it is classic apophasis, i.e. a rhetorical device for making insinuations about something you want to denigrate while dodging responsibility for doing so.
Do you think things would have happened differently if OP has just said "I think that, in my humble opinion, their behavior and their ways of brigading and defaming an opinion that diverges only slightly from their current of thought, sincerely goes against the state of mind of our community on this instance" ?
I think there are multiple things one can complain about, I was simply objecting to your minimizing one of them. I think even within that modified statement there is malicious (or perhaps self-victimizing) mischaracterization, but I don't feel like arguing about the other statements as others can probably do just as good a job and have more enthusiasm than I do for endlessly re-addressing the same complaints, which increasingly feels to me like the main dealing Hexbear has with liberal comms.
Citation dont je partage la pensée en lisant ce thread mdr, quelle bande de bachi-bouzouks
Attention, toi aussi tu fais parti de l'instance facho, c'est bien connu 😂
On passe notre temps à parler de sujets de gauche, à promouvoir les initiatives de gauche, à critiquer Macron, le RN et toute la clique, mais les mecs ils débarquent et hop, ils savent tout. Franchement ça me fume comment c'est dingue.
Je devrais tag l'utilisateur avec Gauche dans son nom, il apprécierait sûrement.
Après attention, bachi-bouzouk -> le Capitaine Haddock -> Hergé -> le Congo, cqfd!
Enfin...
*removed externally hosted image*
If they had leveled the standard online forum slapfight nothingburger charges, but with slightly different wording? No, probably not.
That adds clarification. My understanding is that interaction between this instance and Hexbear is limited to begin with due to the French language barrier, ergo brigading doesn't make sense as a defederation reason, but this isn't my instance. I do have a Hexbear account, so obviously I am pro-Hexbear.
Fascism and anticommunism are twins, I recommend checking out the book I linked.
It's been a while that I've read it but iirc that's not what is described in the book due to the difference in intent.
Anticommunism is born from the ruling/fascist adjacent class to misled less politicized people by manufacturing false consciousness. While anticommunism materialistically helps capitalism and fascism, this is not the intent of the anticommunists, while it is the overt goal of the fascists.
A dumbass being anticommunist because of gaslighting is fundamentally different from someone being an actual fascist. The former will still be able to change his mind, the latter won't because it's usually coming from it's material interest.
Saying they are twins is not only a misleading, but it also hides the different mechanisms between anticommunism and fascism.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay. As Capitalism decays, Communist sentiment rises, and Capitalism employs its defensive mechanism, fascism, against it. The largest sources of anticommunism come from the same place as fascism, they aren't the same, but they are twins. That's my point.