Credit: https://x.com/BanhmiBrieoche/status/1858838454546682001/photo/1
It's always funny to me how the go-to examples of like, "See, they just blindly support anything the regime does!" tend to be relatively minor events after the state in question has considerably chilled out. Like, Stalin and Mao did much worse things compared to Khrushchev/Hungary and Deng/Tienanmen. The problem being, communists are generally willing to criticize things like the Great Leap Forward, because, surprise surprise, we don't just blindly support anything they do. The reason for this is that the word tankie isn't meant to describe someone who blindly supports everything a communist country does, as it's claimed to, but rather, someone who supports anything any communist country does.
The fear Western leftists had that led to the term being coined was that people who had previously been critical of Stalin and Mao would respond positively to the countries moving away from their approach, and so they had to create a label to discredit such people and associate them with the previous leaders. It's one of the reasons Khrushchev's approach was questionable, because no matter how much you try to distance yourself from someone like Stalin and paint yourself as "one of the good ones," you're still never going to appease the Western left that demands absolute perfection, let alone the West in general.
The biggest irony of our times is blood thirsty liberals who are cheering for as much war as possible running around calling people tankies.
Those fucking bloodthirsty tankies don't want us sending more tanks to nazis
For whatever reason, I've seen fascists try to claim they are not fascists because they haven't done anything yet or are not close to the levers of power.
I have actually found the “tankie” moniker to be useful IRL:
Tell someone you’re a Marxist-Leninist and you just get a blank stare.
Tell someone you’re a socialist and they think you mean you’re simpatico with AOC and Bernie.
Tell someone you’re a communist and they will just shut down and not hear anything else you say.
But “tankie” seems to convey enough truth - that you support past and current efforts from AES states to build socialism - to be useful.
Let's bracket the "was the USSR in the right?" question, and let's ask the "how brutal was the Soviet clampdown on these two uprisings?"
- 1956 Hungary: 2000-3000 killed by the USSR
- 1968 Prague: 137 killed by the USSR
How does this compare to clampdowns by NATO countries (excluding the US)?
- Indonesian National Revolution against the Dutch: 100 000 Indonesians killed by the Dutch
- Algerian War of Independence: 250 000 killed by the French (French estimate) - 1.5 Million (Algerian estimate)
- French War against Vietnamese Independence: 200 000 dead
- Portuguese Colonial Wars: 70,000–110,000 civilians killed by Portugal
- Mau Mau Uprising against the UK: "Officially the number of Mau Mau and other rebels killed was 11,000, including 1,090 convicts hanged by the British administration. The Kenya Human Rights Commission has said 90,000 Kenyans were executed, tortured or maimed during the crackdown, and 160,000 were detained in appalling conditions. "
This is a non-exhaustive list with estimates. The actual brutality is not conveyed. The war crimes are often comparable to the Waffen SS.
You get the idea: the colonial powers were incomparably worse.
Off topic: It's times/comments like these that I wish people kept in mind when they start clamouring for defederation
"Both sides" is when you equivocate two things which are not equal, you're looking for "whataboutism" which is not an actual fallacy, claiming "you're doing whataboutism" was a PR tactic first used by British colonizers when Irish people brought up British violence in response to anti-IRA propaganda.
it get that they're both bad faith ways to shut down discourse and i can see how whataboutism fits; but i was referring to the false equivalency placed between the nato's atrocities and that of the soviet union's in the comment
when it's "both sides" is brought up to shutdown arguments that the democrats have done some of the same things that the republicans did; they're likewise implying that the democrats have fewer of such incidents than the republicans and therefore the argument is invalid.
this was my half snarky way of saying that this comment is a "both sides" example can be applied in the opposite direction where it neuters the effect that "both sides" has with liberals.
i think it's better that you say something if it's not clear for the people who lurk through all the interactions.
Im not the person who replied to you but I picked up on what you meant
fwiw, I suspect Hexbear users expect snark more. It's basically the default mode in a bunch of comms.
I would submit that sometimes "whataboutism" can be related to the issue of topicality in a debate, though. If not addressed properly topicality issues will inevitably derail a discussion as is their nature.
The use of the word "tankie" these days is so over-used it has become synonymous with "left of the DNC." I've even seen Anarchists described as "tankies," it's getting ridiculous. Still, the word "tankie" is most often used by liberals against Marxists, though they won't admit to having an anti-Marxist bias, mostly because they think they agree with Marx generally but are unfamiliar with Marxist analysis.
Really, more people need to read theory before having an opinion on it to avoid speaking past each other. I wrote an introductory reading list for Marxism-Leninism if anyone wants to get a better understanding of Marxism.
thank you for that and the "what is socialism" post; but i'm encountering that theory is somehow still a HEAVY read for someone like who me has been inside the leftist sphere of influence for his entire life; there's needs to be some sort of sound-bite-able way of sharing these messages and i wish that ml's had the capitalists' deep pockets that guarantees a deep bench of talent that could figure something like this out.
it reminds of my own own experience of going from technical support to software engineering by simply reading. your ignorance makes it daunting as first and you have to put in A LOT of effort to understand it when you don't even know the basics and you'll get there eventually if you stick with it; but most won't stick with it and if you're REALLY knowledgeable at it, it becomes difficult to understand why it's difficult for other people.
You could start with communist content on YouTube. That tends to be more easily digestible and eases you into reading theory later on.
I can recommend channels like Second Thought, Yugopnik, Hakim, revolutionaryth0t and Ian Neves/História Pública (you'll need to use subtitles for this one if you don't speak portuguese).
ha! i'm already subscribed to half of them, but thanks nonetheless for the two i didn't know about.
We need to make more parentiwave tbh, we've been slacking on that
i've never heard of parentiwave, but it sounds perfect if it's anything like vaporwave
https://youtu.be/OOUQ28oTsVY
Of the few tracks, this one's my favorite
my family calls it complaining and so do i despite my therapist's efforts to get me to stop calling it so; i bet that guy WISHES he could roll his eyes as hard as my family does every time i do it. lol
It's certainly difficult, but when in doubt I love sharing this person's articles as more bite-sized bits of theory and soundbites from Michael Parenti speeches, haha.
even more material to "read"; now i'm wondering if i'll ever be finished with any of it. lol
Haha, if you want the most bang for your buck I stand wholeheartedly behind my introductory reading list. I truly put a lot of effort into it and several comrades helped tremendously.
i'm starting there because i've learned that audio books are the best way to cheat at "reading" lol
Back when I used reddit it seemed like everyone threw around Fascist in a similar way. Lemmy seems to prefer Tankie. For a lot of people the thinking doesn't go any farther than "I disagree with you, therefore you are ________ist" or whatever.
It is what it is.
The devs are tankies and there are some notorious tankie instances, like Hexbear and Lemmygrad, so they're a lot more visible here than on reddit.
It varies from instance to instance. The main users of the word "tankie" are blahaj.zone, lemmy.world, and sh.itjust.works from what I've seen, most other instances generally aren't as bad about it IMO.
but I- oh wait I do have an opinion on Soviet use of tanks to crush the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring uprising. My bad, continue.
As I said in another comment, Tankies are often in support of the modern Russian state and the modern CCP. These are not positions that are "left of the DNC".
Supporting the PRC is absolutely a Leftist position, as a Socialist country and a rising superpower it's the current best hope for Socialism, whether you agree with all of the CPC's actions or only some.
Critical, reserved support for Russia's temporary and strategic anti-US Hegemony stance does not mean Leftists critically supporting Russia agree with the Russian state or support it.
Support for Russia's genocidal invasion of Ukraine in no way supports anti-US hegemony stances. They're literally stealing children and indoctrinating them-the same thing the US did while committing genocide against the First Peoples.
Just opposing the US doesn't make Russia the good guys.
They're literally stealing children and indoctrinating them
Let's say there's a war going on, and let's say there are war orphans, or children who were already orphans before the war
Let's say these children are also native Russian speakers, like many many people in Eastern Ukraine-
What should the Russian government do? Send these orphans to orphanages far from the front?
-
Or: put them on the bus and send them to the Ukrainian government where they ban the Russian language and there are Bandera pictures everywhere?
Do you seriously believe this is the same as what the Canadians did to the natives?
I think the extreme version of this, "stealing children", is on the same level as the "Gaddafi 'supplies troops with Viagra to encourage massremoved'"
-
Genocidal invasion
The US is doing an actual genocide in Palestine, but thanks for telling everyone you don't know what words mean
Russia's invasion of Ukraine isn't "genocidal," what would be closer to genocidal is the West's intention to fight Russia to the last Ukranian standing. Several times, Russia has tried to reach a peace deal, only for the UK and US to step in and tell Ukraine not to take it. The "stealing of children" is taking orphans from warzones and making sure they don't die.
Russia's goal isn't to ethnically cleanse Ukraine, nor is it to "de-Nazify" Ukraine. Russia's goal is to totally ruin Ukraine's military capabilities as a means to prevent further extension of NATO encirclement around it's borders. This is a consequence of the 2014 Euromaidan coup, and goes all the way back to the dissolution of the USSR. When the USSR was sliced up and sold to the West for profit, 7 million people died, and a Nationalist movement led to domestic Nationalist bourgeoisie reclaiming industry from the West, beginning a long series of NATO expansion and encirclement to force Russia to open themselves up again for the West to profit.
No, Russia are not the "good guys." No Communist believes Russia has morally just intentions and is here to save everyone. Communists believe Russia is acting in its own material interests, and those interests happen to align against US-Hegemony, which Communists see as the primary block for progress.
Communists have as such advocated for both countries to negotiate a cease-fire since the beginning of the invasion. An ideal situation would be a cessation of NATO expansion and no bloodshed, but Communists have no real control over that.
nor is it to "de-Nazify" Ukraine
I think they do want to do this, since the Nazis are extremely hostile to Russia, so it's crushing the opposition. Obviously this is pretty different from the historical de-Nazification efforts whose corpse Putin cynically puppets as cover for his actions.
If there are meaningful factions of Greater Russia Nazis in Ukraine, he'd obviously be fine with those as he is fine with them in Russia.
Sure, there is some element to that, but the mover and pusher is a removal of threats, not out of any anti-fascist dedication, hence why like you said Putin is fine with "Greater Russia" Nazis.
If you don't have an opinion on it, you might when you learn the fascists were putting chalk marks on the doors of communists and jews
nowadays tankie just means someone who shills for china/russia with a communist background
Yet again begging liberals to understand what the word "shill" means.
Define liberal please because I don't like being called one.
In the same way that some people will shill for billionaires or for some billionaire-owned company, aka a corporate shill. People who fail to see that (capitalist) companies are just a way to extract profit. In the same vein, some people fail to see that nation states are just instruments of power. Some are better than others in different ways of course, but I get real itchy when people jump to defend a nation at the first smidgeon of criticism. I hate nationalism.
Define liberal please because I don't like being called one.
Liberalism is the dominant ideology of capitalism, it is a wide set of social and political views that serve capitalism through the absorption of bourgeois attitides and its primsry vehicle of political legitimacy is bourgeois democracy, like parliamentarianism. Every person living under capitalism has absorbed some liberalism, including every anarchist and communist. But those who critically engage sufficiently can shed the label because they understand the system sufficiently and work against it.
You are repeatedly exoressing a litany of thoughts rooted in unexamined liberalism. One that is usually retained by baby leftists in Western countries is racism and xenophobia. They will see the value of organized labor and social justice but cannot tie it to imperislism and fall in line with who the Capitalists tell them is their enemy
What do you think of people who say it's hypocritical for queer people to support Palestine? Because to a socialist you sound like that when spreading imperialist pinkwashing against China.
In the same way that some people will shill for billionaires or for some billionaire-owned company, aka a corporate shill. People who fail to see that (capitalist) companies are just a way to extract profit.
A shill is someone paid to profess to have views other than their own. People shilling for a product makes sense, it is an old salesman tactic.
Who do you think is paying me to be right about China all the time?
In the same vein, some people fail to see that nation states are just instruments of power.
On the contrary, every communist that has ever existed knows this. We write about it all the time. Projecting this liberalism onto communists is just telling on yourself.
Some are better than others in different ways of course, but I get real itchy when people jump to defend a nation at the first smidgeon of criticism. I hate nationalism.
Existing in the real world as we do, your "anti-nationalism" is really just nationalism in favor of Western powers, despite your professibg to be against them. You repeat their talking points! What do you think the outcome is of uncritically repeating sinophobic or russophobic falsehoods? Why do you think we are even talking about those two countries? It is because US empire has decided to focus on them as targets of derision and marginalization.
What, exact, nationalism are you pushing back against? What is making you itchy? Because all I see are people defending China against piss-poor talking points.
Liberalism is the dominant ideology of capitalism,
gonna stop reading right here since I've stated I'm anticapitalist and it feels like going in circles. sorry but can only answer so many of these huge comments in a day. If there's an argument you really want me to engage with please let me know
Weird way to say has at least modicum of understanding of geopolitics and doesn't support the genocidal western empire.
It’s not shilling, it’s nuance. American main stream thinking is full of lies about both China and Russia. And both conservatives and liberals HATE when people don’t fall in line.
Your second and third sentence are true. I have definitely seen plenty of shills though.
In my experience I've only seen the word tankie be used by leftists. Libs and conservatives don't even know what a tankie is.
Anyone who uses the term "tankie" unironically to disparage other leftists is a lib. Anyone who uses the term ironically to make fun of those who don't is a leftist. But you're right, conservatives don't know what it means, they also don't know that they are libs as well.
Communists support the PRC as a Socialist state run by Marxist-Leninists, yes. No Communist supports the Russian Federation outright, however, only reserved, temporary, and highly critical support for Russia's anti-US Hegemony stance, which it only adopts for its own survival and not out of any moral superiority. No Communist "shills" for the Russian Federation.
If China is a socialist state worth supporting then I'm a donkey with a laser dick :P But I'm more anarchistically inclined so different perspective.
I see your point though. What I'm saying is not that communist = tankie, on the contrary. I'm saying that tankies claim to be communists but spend all day parroting their favorite Russian or Chinese state propaganda because they believe everything else is clearly controlled by Obamna™ himself. They rarely actually talk about communism, they just roam Lemmy all day calling everybody who disagrees with them a liberal :D
Per the origins of the term, a tankie is a communist that supported the Soviets wuelling the Hungarian 1956 uprising. It was an insult concocted by British Trotskyists, who also consider themselves communists.
The modern use of the term is just a liberal sentiment leveled against anyone that doesn't fall neatly in line with US Empire's vilification campaigns. If you dare to say that Russia has material motivations that are a counter to those of the US rather than being a kingdom run by a madman that just loves killing, you are a tankie. If you don't want Ukraine used as a proxy for the US to hurt Russia, regardless of how many Ukrainians die, you are a tankie. If you treat the PRC as country filled with normal people living normal lives rather than the dystopian nightmare it's falsely depicted as, uou are a tankie. If you know anything at all about Dengism, you are a tankie.
Really, the liberal position on both countries is premised on orientalism and it is never a surprise when the criticisms inevitably turn into vague tropes. And when this laziness is called out, well, it's time to deploy a tactical tankie reference. I definitely don't care about being insulted, these situations are really just a way for the other person to give themselves an excuse to stop thinking or engaging.
Those are some valid arguments actually. I guess some people do throw the term around too liberally (heh).
It's always hilarious to see how the most ignorant libs are always the most confident. You might as well believe you're a donkey with a laser dick as it makes as much sense as everything else you believe.
hehe Yogthos I was actually thinking of you when I mentioned China stans :P no offense
I really don't like being called a liberal though :( what makes me come across like a liberal? Is it my anarchism? My hatred of capitalism, colonialism and western hegemony?
Anarchists are liberals who like LARPing as leftists. You share the same ideology and focus on individualism above all else.
Okay we might have a different definition of liberal. (ironically under a post where I'm arguing about the definition of tankie lol). I'm talking about people who think capitalism can work or can be made to work. People who conflate capitalism and the fake meritocracy sold by the American dream with actual freedom.
If liberal just means somebody who believes that freedom is important, then yeah I'm a liberal. But maybe you have a different definition? (genuinely asking, not trying to be standoffish)
You have a misconception about anarchism being about individualism though. Anarchists focus on community and communes. Most anarchist theory I've consumed laments the individualism that capitalism tries to sell because it destroys culture and community.
Liberalism is fundamentally an ideology of private property ownership and that's why it always inevitably devolved into fascism in times of crisis.
Therefore, whenever economic liberalism finds itself under threat from “populism”, it quickly jettisons the principles of political liberalism to which it is theoretically tied.
In other words, these “principles” are not principles at all, just convenient postures designed to cloak the unpleasant reality of the economic liberals’ capitalist system.
https://orgrad.wordpress.com/articles/liberalism-the-two-faced-tyranny-of-wealth/
Anarchists talk a lot about community, but reject actual practical way to organize communally and combat capitalism. And the argument for rejecting practical means is that these approaches restrict individual freedoms. Anarchists place their individual freedom above collective good, and thus align with liberal capitalists in action.
Liberalism is fundamentally an ideology of private property ownership and that’s why it always inevitably devolved into fascism in times of crisis.
What does this have to with anarchism, which rejects private property?
Anarchists place their individual freedom above collective good, and thus align with liberal capitalists in action.
Anarchists believe that it is neither a supreme ruler nor the majority that decide what collective good is. I reject your idea that the collective good is something we have to decide on collectively and then force upon those who disagree. Anarchists have been brutally repressed in Western countries, they in no way align with liberal capitalists in action.
Everything anarchists do in tangible terms helps maintain liberal capitalist rule. That's the reality of the situation. Hence why anarchists are just LARPing without any tangible plan of action. Anarchists love moaning about being brutally repressed, but refused to take any action against the repression.
IMO, building support networks and communities is better than meeting in dark rooms and planning revolutions. Or what is your plan of action? (Genuinely asking)
Nobody is talking about any dark rooms, just go look at what PSL is doing very much in the open. If you look at any successful revolution it has always started by building support networks and organizing communities. It's kind of wild that you are not aware of this. The difference with communists is that we understand that an organized dictatorship of capital requires organization and education to fight against. So, along with building out support networks we also focus on political education, organization, and long term goals.
That sounds like we're quite aligned with our methodology actually. So why are you so standoffish?
The whole context for this thread is you claiming that an actually existing socialist state is not really socialist because it doesn't pass your purity test.
anarchistically
True anarchist stance is when your geopolitical opinions about the US's rivals coincidentally align perfectly with that of the US State Department. It's always the other side that is propagandized.
Stop with the strawmen. When did I say I agree with US propaganda? When did I say that I consider myself on the same side as the US?
tankies claim to be communists but spend all day parroting their favorite Russian or Chinese state propaganda
Tell us how these "tankies" are "parroting" propaganda and we'll tell you exactly how your geopolitical opinions align with the US State Dept.
When did I say I agree with US propaganda?
For starters, right here where you showed your whole ass and said: "If China is a socialist state worth supporting then I'm a donkey with a laser dick"
You do seem to be quite a donkey but clearly it's just overconfident false advertisement about the laser.
If China is so great then why does it feel the need to dictate over Hong Kong and Taiwan? Does China have gay marriage? Trans rights perhaps?
I'm not saying China is as bad as the West claims it is. I'm just saying it's not something to get wild about. It's a nation state (a far too big one at that), which are by definition tools of oppression.
If China is so great
Are we having a discussion of geopolitics or a schoolyard gossip fight?
then why does it feel the need to dictate over Hong Kong
Why do you have strong opinions about this topic when you clearly do not know any history about China?
China, more specifically the Qing Dynasty, was colonized (mostly by the British) through a series of imperialist ventures thst included the Opium Wars. The result was the designation of Hong Kong, already an existing Chinese city, as a British imperial trade hub where resources and wealth extracted from the rest of the country was traded, as well as later serving as a finsncial hub for the rest of the imperialized region. But, to put it simply, the British stole Hong Kong in 1841-1843.
When China threw off all of its imperial masters in its national liberation fight against the Japanese, it then had a civil war due to the KMT attacking the communists. Obviously, the communists won. As part of this, they reclaimed Hong Kong just a little over 100 years after it was stolen, but using the legal definition that had been imposed by the British, who had given themselves a 100-year lease that ended in 1997.
Hong Kong is a Chinese city that was colonized by the British and is being reintegrated, as yiu would expect from a sovereign country. You claimed elsewhere that you are against Western hegemony, but this is a crystal clear example of anticolonial action and you're siding with the colonists that write breathless propaganda about how unfair it is that China is governing a Chinese city.
and Taiwan
Again, just basic history. When the communists were reconsolidating their country, they were also expelling KMT forces. At the end, the KMT looted wealth and cultural artifacts and fled to Taiwan, where they set up a military dictatorship and began oppressing the indigenous people there. The PRC was set to invade Taiwan and finish their civil war, but the US set up a blockade and the PRC opted to vow a later return rather than force the Americans out. The first question you should have is why the US was meddling in their civil war.
Both the PRC and the KMT have long held that the civil war has never ended, with the PRC claiming Taiwan and the KMT claiming all of msinlsnd China and also Mongolia. The PRC holds a consistent line of reunification being the end goal.
The US uses Taiwan to harass the PRC and wants to use it to escalate tensions. It may even try to turn it into another Ukraine, doing everything it can to push China over red lines militarily until it finally decides that Taiwan is an intolerable threat just a few miles off its coast and very close to Shenzhen. If that happened, would you yet again go after the target if US imperialism like your masters tell you to, calling it an unprovoked aggression? Would you have new names for people that correctly blame the US for using their proxies as puppets to harass other nations? The US is already trying to derisk from Taiwan by exportinh its chip production facilities but it isn't going well because the US is so finsncislized that it can't barely build productive capacity at even 10X the cost of elsewhere.
Does China have gay marriage?
This is another example of why someone would call you a liberal. Pinkwashing imperialist takes. What is your logic on what is permitted to be done to other countries if they don't have a legal recognition of gay marriage? On what basis do other cultures need to mirror your own preferences in order for them to be free of your chauvinism? Any real county will have reactionary elements, some old, some new. Your country, and you, have reactionary elements.
There is a populsr struggle for gay marriage in China and it is going pretty well. It is mostly jist old people who are against it. You should exoect to see it legalized in the next decade or so. But you will have had nothing to do with thst, as your contribution here is to sneer at the entire country for not doing what this Westerner baby leftist demands.
Incidentally, if the CPC did force through legalized gay marriage and it elicited some negative response, like protests, you can be certain this would be characterized as an authoritarian overreach and how dare they disregard the will of the people. Some "socialists", huh!?
Trans rights perhaps?
China has better trans rights than your country, most likely. It has less transphobia to begin with, had major out and truly popular trans celebrities before the US did, and provides gender-affirming care of all kinds in a way that is truly accessible for the vast majority of people. Compare this to the US where trans kids are often exiled by their families and given no support, leading to high rates of homelessness, hard drug use, and death.
China does not have the same culture wars as the US, it doesn't have the same need for capital to create and maintain marginalization to distract from material decline. China is materially advancing and ending extreme poverty.
I'm not saying China is as bad as the West claims it is. I'm just saying it's not something to get wild about.
But you don't seem to know anything about China. Why have an opinion at all? Why not hold your tongue until you have done some reading or talked nicely to Chinese people?
It's a nation state (a far too big one at that), which are by definition tools of oppression.
Sure, but what of it? Do you think we are in a position to have a societu free of oppression, including nation states? With you and whose army?
Socialists must build revolution in the real world, with what is materially in front of us. Tell us how you would, say, end China's status as a nation state without it just getting immediately recolonized, probably by the country in which you live, work, and to which you contribute.
Hong Kong is a Chinese city that was colonized by the British and is being reintegrated, as yiu would expect from a sovereign country. You claimed elsewhere that you are against Western hegemony, but this is a crystal clear example of anticolonial action and you’re siding with the colonists that write breathless propaganda about how unfair it is that China is governing a Chinese city.
Okay so violently beating down protesters is okay because it's in the name of anticolonialism? This line of reasoning goes exactly the same as US imperialism. It's always some harmful ideology that is enslaving the poor people of some place and they must be freed by being forced to join the empire.
I don't get where you're trying to take this conversation. You don't have to prove to me that some things about China are great. In this comment alone you admitted three times that China isn't perfect. Which means, China should be criticized. Like any other nation state. And I am saying, there are shills who run around and won't let anybody criticize China because for some reason they got emotionally attached to a nation state. Everybody who says they don't want to deepthroat Mao's shlong for breakfast gets called a liberal. Any and all words uttered by a human that has even looked at the US on a map is liberal slop, and everything coming from the Russian state department is gospel. And I call those people tankies. That's all I'm saying.
First, before I respond point-by-point, I would like to point out thst you have ignored nearly all of my response. I offered you information, history, and context, in part because it is informative, but mostly because it provides you the opportunity to recognize (vocally or not) your ignorance of this topic and instead redirect your attention yo actually questioning your knowledge and opinions and doing some reading instead of lashing out or doubling down.
Instead, you are doubling down on seeking conflict and sharing, yet again, that your only knowledge of this topic is what you were recemtly told to believe by capitalist media propagandists. And that this is so superior to my knowledge that you don't even need to acknowledge what I've said and can just continue on trying to be contrarian.
Do you think it would be fair to call your behavior insufferable, as you have called tankies? To be clear, I do expect an answer to this question.
Okay so violently beating down protesters is okay because it's in the name of anticolonialism?
Oh, so you aren't even really responding to what I said, which is about Westerners being outraged that China was governing China. I thought you might not understand what I meant by that, but I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Anyways this is a srraw man and I will ignore it.
This line of reasoning goes exactly the same as US imperialism. It's always some harmful ideology that is enslaving the poor people of some place and they must be freed by being forced to join the empire.
You're just talking to yourself about all of this. It has nothing to do with what I said.
Are you ready to have an actual conversation or are you so deep into liberalism that you can only imagine fighting and winning rather than questioning your own ignorance?
I don't get where you're trying to take this conversation. You don't have to prove to me that some things about China are great. In this comment alone you admitted three times that China isn't perfect. Which means, China should be criticized.
Let's say you go to a bar and there are some Nazis at the next table. You hear them say, "and fuck those communists, they will get what is coming to them". Are you going to go over there and say, "yeah, fuck those tankies! They're insufferable authoritarians"? Because all that means is that you're going out of your way to validate Nazis trying to kill communists and aligning yourself with them. When someone says, "what the fuck, punch those Nazis, don't validate them" are you going up say, "ergo, communists should be criticized".
Your entire social context is those Nazis in that bar. And your criticisms aren't even informed, they're the bullshit spread by the Nazi propagandists. And then you tell everyone you're on the left.
If you ever spent time among communists, you would find they are very critical of China. But their criticisms are differemt from yours becsyse yours are warmed over cold war talking points and uncritical readings of the media. And they are intentional about their outward criticisms, becayse again, our entire social context is the Nazi bar.
Like any other nation state. And I am saying, there are shills who run around and won't let anybody criticize China because for some reason they got emotionally attached to a nation state
Nonsense. Speak to and of the tankies right in front of you right now. What, exactly, are we doing?
Everybody who says they don't want to deepthroat Mao's shlong for breakfast gets called a liberal.
Hey look it's that homophobia I mentioned liberals doing in another comment. You asked me what a liberal is, well there you go. A liberal us, for exple, someone that attacks China for not having legalized gay marriage but then uses homophobic insults.
Do self-crit.
Any and all words uttered by a human that has even looked at the US on a map is liberal slop, and everything coming from the Russian state department is gospel. And I call those people tankies. That's all I'm saying.
You do tell a lot of vague stories but they have no relation to what people are actually doing.
It is not coincidental that you ignored the vast majority of what I said, as it was concrete history.
Are you ready to have an actual conversation
I thought I was having one. I'm just disagreeing with you on some things and you somehow seem to think that means I'm not engaging. I'm trying.
Let’s say you go to a bar and there are some Nazis at the next table. You hear them say, “and fuck those communists, they will get what is coming to them”. Are you going to go over there and say, “yeah, fuck those tankies! They’re insufferable authoritarians”? Because all that means is that you’re going out of your way to validate Nazis trying to kill communists and aligning yourself with them. When someone says, “what the fuck, punch those Nazis, don’t validate them” are you going up say, “ergo, communists should be criticized”.
Woah no and I'm sorry if I've given the impression I would do something like that. I consider marxist-leninist communists to be misguided comrades, and I hope you can think of me the same way.
Hey look it’s that homophobia
How is that homophobia? I think you're construing something here.
It is not coincidental that you ignored the vast majority of what I said, as it was concrete history.
It is not coincidental that I skimmed this comment as well because it is really fucking long. sorry
do some self crit
you were given answers in earnest, and you are not engaging with them in a sincere way
The nuances of the PRC's desire for a One China policy largely stem from the Marxist theory of Nations, along with a desire to throw off all western colonizers. Without understanding the depths of the "century of humiliation" you can't hope to understand the desire for a unified China.
Secondly, the PRC's process means social change comes slowly, but it has been improving. Notably, Xin Jing, a transgender woman, is one of China's top celebrities. Change is slow, but is happening at different rates across different sections of the PRC. Social change comes from improvements in productive forces and focusing on people as a priority.
Thirdly, nobody is saying the PRC is Anarchist, but your insistence that everyone agree with you saying the government is by definition a tool of oppression despite 90%+ approval rates stands at direct odds with the people themselves. Like it or not, you must face the reality that it is Marxism that has brought great improvements to China's conditions, and these improvements are continuing at a rapid pace, and thus has widespread support.
it is Marxism that has brought great improvements to China’s conditions, and these improvements are continuing at a rapid pace, and thus has widespread support.
I can face that reality I think.
All fair points, but what about Taiwan and Hong Kong? What about the treatment of minorities?
but what about Taiwan
You mean the island where the fascist fled after they lost the Chinese civil war and now acts as a base of US military hegemony?
Hong Kong
What about Hong Kong? The UK leased it after they won a colonialist war in the 19th century. The last British governor of Hong Kong was a white dude appointed from London. What about Hong Kong?
"Only 17% of Hong Kongers say they want independence from China with just 20% saying China has abused the “one country, two systems” model to favor Beijing, a Reuters poll released on December 31 shows."
What about the treatment of minorities?
Could you give us examples?
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You mean the island where the fascist fled after they lost the Chinese civil war and now acts as a base of US military hegemony?
So what? Imperialism is suddenly okay if you don't like the ruling ideology there? That is the same logic underlying US imperialism, and coincidentally, fits the old definition of the word tankie.
What about Hong Kong?
You may recall protests being violently repressed.
Could you give us examples?
Many uighurs have been imprisoned for example.
Also your screenshot once again, just tries to prove China is awesome, because the US is bad. I'm not trying to compare the two.
What are you trying to prove to me? That China is perfect? I know you don't believe that.
So what? Imperialism is suddenly okay if you don't like the ruling ideology there?
My brother in NED, it's not just about a "ruling ideology", Taiwan is literally a US stronghold against China, and if you recall your geography lessons from high school, you might remember that the United States is in North America on the other side of the Pacific Ocean. If any country does imperialism on that side of the globe it's the USA, since Taiwan is called Republic of China, and most countries don't recognize ROC as the "true" China.
You may recall protests being violently repressed.
You may recall that the CIA literally foments colour revolutions against geopolitical rivals or countries who don't swear fealty to the US. Have you heard of Jacobo Arbenz? Mossadegh? and so on?
You may recall that hours ago I literally quoted that 83% of Hongkongers want to belong to China.
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What are you trying to prove to me? That China is perfect? I know you don't believe that.
The point is, since it eludes you for some reason, is that it's pure projection from the West of accusing China of bad minority policies, when the West is worse in many many ways. Not that China is "perfect" whatever that means in real world policies, but the West want you to think China = BAD. And the only reason you do this hand-wringing about minorities in China is because US State Department think tanks implanted that thought in your head some time ago by bombarding you with anti-China propaganda.
The other point is that anarchists crying about tankies are just useful idiots, since the real threat to capitalist hegemony is the actually existing socialist countries. That's why the FBI and the CIA was always more concerned about Leninists than about anarchists.
House passes $1.6 billion to deliver anti-China propaganda overseas
It doesn't elude me that the West tries to paint China worse than it is. Although I have learned a thing or two today.
Others have done far more research on those subjects and can answer them better than I can, so rather than contribute to the spread of nonsense I will refrain from speaking outside of what I factually know.
What, specifically, are you asking about?
Hong Kong has experienced violent oppression from China when there were protests. Taiwan wants to be independent but is not recognized as such by China. While Western media has certainly exaggerated claims, there are credible reports of uyghurs being repressed. I'm not saying this behavior is worse than Western imperialist behavior. I'm saying these are imperialist behaviors, and just like the US, the Chinese government tries to cover them up or pretend they aren't happening, or comes up with some reason for it.
What I'm saying is that there are some people who buy into that, and will shut down any criticism of it.
there are credible reports of uyghurs being repressed.
Could you link one that is not from Adrian Zenz or from ASPI or the US NGO-industrial complex?
edit:
Would Al Jazeera suffice? https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/8/10/one-million-muslim-uighurs-held-in-secret-china-camps-un-panel
It's literally just an American politician at the UN in 2018 citing "credible reports"
As an anarchist, do you often believe what US bureaucrats say? Because if you do I can give you plenty of links from other bureaucrats who don't agree with her
The World Bank’s work is driven by core principles of inclusion, with special consideration for the protection of minorities and other vulnerable peoples. When allegations are made, the World Bank takes them seriously and reviews them thoroughly. In line with standard practice, immediately after receiving a series of serious allegations in August 2019 in connection with the Xinjiang Technical and Vocational Education and Training Project, the Bank launched a fact-finding review, and World Bank senior managers traveled to Xinjiang to gather information directly. After receiving the allegations, no disbursements were made on the project.
The team conducted a thorough review of project documents, engaged in discussions with project staff, and visited schools directly financed by the project, as well as their partner schools that were the subject of allegations. The review did not substantiate the allegations.
There's a lot going on here, so I will go section by section.
- Hong Kong
The scale of the violence against protestors is exaggerated, and much of the protests were directly funded by Hong Kong bourgeoisie and Western NGOs and States, like the US. Currently, less than a quarter want independence. This is because Hong Kong was a british colony and financially is totally enmeshed with mainland China.
- Taiwan
Both Taiwan and the PRC claim legitimate rule to the entirety of China. However, Taiwan's historical background is as a runaway retreat for the Kuomintang, a Nationalist party that was at war with the much more popular CPC. Taiwan also serves as a staging ground for the US to exert pressure on the PRC.
- Uyghur Repression
This is a topic I don't know enough about, and reserve the right not to speak. However, I will say that claims of "genocide" come from the fascist Adrian Zenz, and moreover travel to Xinjiang is open and freely permissible. In addition, Uyghurs were exempt from the One Child Policy, as all minority populations were. I cannot speak on the treatment within the re-education camps, however, as I have not done the research necessary.
- Imperialism
When Marxists speak of Imperialism, they speak of Lenin's definition and outlining, which refers to a specific stage in Capitalism where Industrial and Financial Capital are exported to super-exploit for super-profits. These actions by the PRC do not constitute Imperialism from that standpoint.
- Covering up
I am not aware of the CPC covering up or censoring discussion of these topics.
If China is so great then why does it feel the need to dictate over Hong Kong and Taiwan?
It doesn't. Taiwan and Hong Kong ARE China. If anything the high level of autonomy that China allows reactionary regional governments to have is what should be criticized.
Does China have gay marriage? Trans rights perhaps?
China allows for civil unions for LGBTQ. https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1162943.shtml It made civil unions legal across the nation before USA made gay marriage legal in every state. Like all places in the world (some more than others) China has a long way to go on LGBTQ rights. But that's just it, China is improving along those lines, while the US is rapidly regressing. China is improving with trans rights and has been punishing companies that violate them. So yes, we should absolutely support China in continuing to move in the correct direction.
It's a nation state (a far too big one at that), which are by definition tools of oppression.
Lol, by whose definition? A state is only as good or bad as the ruling class that wields it. A bourgeois (capitalist) state will always be oppressive. As a socialist state (and China is a socialist state), the CPC uses its power to suppress the constant attempts of the bourgeois to oppress the working class.
Taiwan and Hong Kong ARE China
Imperialism much?
China is improving along those lines, while the US is rapidly regressing
That's fair, but it's once again an argument based entirely on comparing China to the US. The US being bad doesn't make China good. To get back to my original argument, I'm just saying that the word 'tankie' refers to China or Russia simps. There is no nation in this world worth simping for.
Imperialism much?
It is imperialism to let proxy governments for the UK and US maintain a colonial foothold in China actually.
So the Taiwanese all desperately want to join the DPRC? Last I checked Taiwan was a sovereign nation. Capitalism has a foothold there but the British no longer rule there. Justifying imperialism with imperialism also doesn't magically make it okay
Last I checked Taiwan was a sovereign nation.
Please, check again
Disputes about Taiwan's sovereignty is the most famous fact about Taiwan. You are deeply unserious.
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Okay I may have worded that wrong but that is also misleading. China is a huge power (I say this is a problem as you may recall). Having diplomatic ties with China is necessary for most nations. China refuses to have diplomatic ties with anyone who recognizes Taiwan as a sovereign nation. So, everybody pretends they don't recognize it, officially. In reality Taiwan has its own government and isn't ruled over by China. In 1991, Taiwan/ROC even recognized the DPRC.
Capitalism has a foothold there but the British no longer rule there. Justifying imperialism with imperialism also doesn’t magically make it okay
No they just installed a friendly neocolonial government. Jesus Christ do some basic investigation. If the British invaded part of your hometown and installed a puppet government, would you call it imperialism for it to be taken back by your town?
Alright, please elaborate on your critical stance on China that is different from what is mainstream in US politics & journalism.
That is the dumbest argument ever. Hitler liked dogs, liking dogs doesn't make you a nazi. That's not to say I agree with the US stance on China, but why would this even matter
again, do some self crit
the point was that many anarchists are indistinguishable from centrists when it comes to actual geopolitical issues, because they have internalized western propaganda about the West's rivals
propaganda is not just lies (though some of it is actual lies), but emphasis
nothing you've written in this thread is a genuine engagement with people who try to refute western propaganda about the west's rivals, and you've written nothing that would indicate that you're not a liberal who just likes anarchist aesthetics with a vague handwavy criticism of "nation states"
many anarchists are indistinguishable from centrists when it comes to actual geopolitical issues
simply gotta disagree. anarchists reject empire and authority. Centrists often support imperialism so long as it is favoring their own country. Anarchists typically oppose the imperialism of their own countries more than anything else.
I'm really trying to engage with people here and I've conceded multiple good points. I've learned some things and I'm seeing new perspectives.
Also why do you care so much about finding a way to call me a liberal it's obsessive :P
Also why do you care so much about finding a way to call me a liberal it's obsessive :P
First step in purging your inner liberal is recognizing that you are a liberal hahaha
The conversation around China will take a minute, so I'll skip ahead to your second paragraph and circle back to do your statement justice.
The people you describe as "tankies" do not exist in any reasonable number. You are extending a belief in some aspects of anti-western sources as full blind dogmatism. Secondly, in order to even consider oneself a Communist in a western-dominated website means exposure to constant western-narrative, the idea that eastern propaganda is much more effective is more of a smokescreen to avoid discussing hard topics than anything else.
As for the PRC, they absolutely aren't Anarchist. They are, however, Marxist-Leninist, and Socialist. They have a Socialist Market Economy. Their Public Sector has supremacy over the direction of the Private Sector as key heavy industries the Private Sector relies on are entirely State Owned, and the Private Sector itself is trapped in a "birdcage model" whereby the CPC increases ownership and control as Markets naturally form monopolist syndicates.
This is entirely in line with Marxism. Marxists believe that markets naturally centralize and form monopolist syndicates ripe for central planning, and thus are more efficient vectors for growth at earlier stages in development, but that as they centralize this becomes less efficient and public ownership and central planning takes priority.
I recommend the article Socialism Developed China, Not Capitalism.
The people I'm describing as tankies are people I've interacted with myself. I'm sure they don't exist in huge numbers, but they are more concentrated on .ml, they are loud, and they are impossible to converse with. I still like it here because most people here, like yourself, are smart and offering interesting perspectives I haven't explored before.
I agree that the idea of only Eastern propaganda being dangerous and pervasive is wrong. Western propaganda is everywhere too and also dangerous.
One thing that is different is the lack of government-critical sources available from China, also Russia. Freedom of Speech in the West is wobbly, but in China and especially Russia it is even worse (from everything I've read).
This is a lovely segue into our China sidequest, and while I agree on the definition, I have doubts on how public the public sector really is. The way that national election results look and the way vocal dissidents or political opposition are treated does not give me the idea that the people truly have all the power here.
Capitalism concentrates power in the capitalist class. This class can then subvert democracy, resulting in oligarchy. In a similar way, central planning concentrates power in the central government, which actually makes it even easier to abuse that power. Chinese government is not transparent nor federal enough for me to call it democratic or owned by the people.
One thing that is different is the lack of government-critical sources available from China, also Russia. Freedom of Speech in the West is wobbly, but in China and especially Russia it is even worse (from everything I've read).
What have you read?
Your freedom of speech is tolerated in the West to the extent thst it doesn't threaten ruling class interests. The ruling class already owns all of the papers and TV channels and think tanks, they drown you out. You can never hope to push socialism through their apparatus. That is how effective their cemsorship already is: you're told you have freedom of speech and then deplatformed. If you get a little louder, you might get a platform on occasion, but will then will still be drowned out by "competing" views.
And if you fly too close to the sun, you will get direct government censorship. Ask Germany how "free speech" is going with regards yup Palestinian solidariry. Ask comrades in the US how free speech is going with Samidoun declared a terrorist orgsnization. Ask a former Black Panther for free their speech was while being soued on snd martyred by the feds and cops.
If you actually do anything that matters, if you truly challenge the ruling powers in the West, you will need to be realistic and expect oppression. The idea that you have free speech is just pure propaganda.
Re: China go on Weibo you will find plenty of criticism of the government. The idea that you can't criticize the government in China is xenophoboc propaganda.
Re: Russia: okay, but what is your point? There are bad things that happen in Russia so... their role against US imperialism is bad? Because that tends to be the only thing supported by "tankies". The Russian Federation is a capitalist project created by capitalist revanchist shock therapy on the USSR that killed 7-10 million people. The West created the RF, its "oligarchs" are hust centralized capitalists like in othet countries in Europe, except the West continued to exclude Russia from the imperisl core, attempting to force it into the periphery (extraction snd poverty). What you see today is a regional capitalist power that is respinding to that. One where the national bourgeoisie are dominant rather than the international bourgeoisie, due to circumstances imposef on them. As a consequence, they often align against Western imperislism.
This is a lovely segue into our China sidequest, and while I agree on the definition, I have doubts on how public the public sector really is. The way that national election results look and the way vocal dissidents or political opposition are treated does not give me the idea that the people truly have all the power here.
Which is to say, you don't actually know anything about it. Public means state-owned, by the way. Do you believe they aren't actually owned by the state?
Capitalism concentrates power in the capitalist class. This class can then subvert democracy, resulting in oligarchy.
This has the false premise that the historical course of capitalism is to enter spaces that were already "democratic" in the bourgeois democratic sense. This is not true. Instead, capitalism itself gained power through the replacement of feudalistic giverning powers (like monarchies) with structures they could control, compatible with their ideas of "progress". In short, they created bourgeous democracy. They were already in control. The question of concentration of capital changes the words but not the fact of who is in control.
In a similar way, central planning concentrates power in the central government, which actually makes it even easier to abuse that power.
In countries run by socialists, central planning is an exercise of power that already exists. The power is maintained through the oppression of competing classes and, traditionally, party bureaucracy.
I don't know what it could possibly mean to say it is "easier to abuse that power", it is so vague and decontextualized thst it just sounds like something you're makinh up on the spot. Socialists endeavour to speak in terms of concrete realities and draw conclusions from them. What is your standard of abuse? Of power? How are you comparing these things?
btw central planning is not unique to countries run by socialists. Highly concentrated capitalism also has central planning aspects, as do their governments in times of emergency. But it is, in that case, central planning for bourgeois interests.
Chinese government is not transparent
How so? Tell me how the Chinese system works for, say, someone working to get a hospital built in their town.
nor federal enough
This sounds like America-centrism. There is nothing inherently democratic about federalism and it is often antidemocratic. If you are in the US, do you applaud the electoral college?
for me to call it democratic or owned by the people.
Tell me which other peripheral countries hsve done so much for their people. Tell me who has alleviated so much poverty, built so much infrastructure, and by their own hand rather than imperialism and capitalist ventures. The proof is in the doing.
I'm genuinely apologizing because I'm only skimming this as I'm getting sleepy. and it's a lot to go through. I can tell you took effort so apologies.
Re: West also bad, at times worse
I know and I agree!
btw central planning is not unique to countries run by socialists. Highly concentrated capitalism also has central planning aspects, as do their governments in times of emergency. But it is, in that case, central planning for bourgeois interests.
And in the case of China, it is for CCP interests. Holding elections every now and then doesn't translate to the dictatorship of the proletariat as envisioned. By that logic, US democracy would be a dictatorship of the proletariat as well, since they hold elections every now and then.
This sounds like America-centrism
I do not consider america really federal, since there is massive power concentrated at the top. Same for other "federal" states like Germany
One thing that is different is the lack of government-critical sources available from China, also Russia.
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Do you speak Chinese or Russian?
No, and that's a good point actually. Although I think the state of political opposition both in Russia and China speaks volumes.
This might be a hard pill to swallow, but Putin is largely popular among Russians for assisting with throwing out the Western Capitalists that bought the various slices of the former USSR after "Shock Doctrine" killed 7 million people with the re-introduction of Capitalism, and the CPC has an over 90% approval rate. Political opposition is largely limited because both governments have more support among their citizenry than Western governments do.
I'm actually really happy that you mentioned Shock Doctrine because last time I was arguing with a tankie they called Naomi Klein a US state sanctioned liberal :D
I already replied on another comment about the support
Shock Doctrine is good theory regardless of whatever western brainworms reside in her. If people couldn't separate theory we'd have to throw the whole thing out with Marx's European brainworms.
Even in the very beginning you see the Western brainworms dangled in your face, but there are good aspects to the book.
yep <3
Unfortunately I've hat the displeasure of "conversing" with a few people who are unable to handle even that level of nuance
Klein herself is fairly liberal, but the impact on the post-Soviet citizenry is apt. 7 million people died so that the West could profit.
I appreciate you calling me smart and trying to have a conversation, however I want to stress something you said:
I’m saying that tankies claim to be communists but spend all day parroting their favorite Russian or Chinese state propaganda because they believe everything else is clearly controlled by Obamna™ himself. They rarely actually talk about communism, they just roam Lemmy all day calling everybody who disagrees with them a liberal :D
What you are seeing is one aspect of people, and moreover the ones with "favorite state propaganda" that distrust all western sources as liberal propaganda don't exist. Even just seeing people debating endlessly on Lemmy.ml is just one aspect, people frequently have different accounts or discuss Communism on different threads than the ones they get into debates in.
Additionally, I encourage you to look beyond the western veil. There are plenty of Russia-critical sources and China-critical sources in the east.
With respect to China, I encourage you to look into processes like Whole Process People's Democracy, State Owned Enterprises, and other aspects to see how Socialism with Chinese Characteristics works. I encourage you to read the article I linked, as well. Additionally, while I know you said you are an Anarchist, your point on centralization being a bad thing goes directly against Marxist understanding. I recommend the article Why Public Property?
Capitalism concentrates itself and centralizes, which prepares the productive forces for the mechanisms required to centerally plan them after folding them into the Public Sector. Central Planning is the only way to truly democratize production in the eyes of Marxists.
I'm curious, where do you think so many westerners are exposed to Russian propaganda? Because there are apparently so many victims of it these days, can't turn a corner without someone decrying all these damn Russian and Chinese shill everywhere. So where do we all come from? What exactly did we get exposed to? I know this is the part where you handwave the question away with a "Heh, they got exposed to devious foreign thought on the freaking internet
" but I'm not letting you off that easy. Tell me what you think the actual specific vectors are for all this "Russian and Chinese propaganda" you see everywhere, and how it was apparently able to easily penetrate the absolute haze of American propaganda that all of us in "the west" have been force fed our entire lives.Please account for this gaping hole in your social theory. Why so many tankies, how, and why only now?
Funny, I was just telling @Cowbee about how the tankies I see on here are insufferable & impossible to converse with.
But I'll bite. First of all, I don't appreciate the strawmen. I'm not saying that there is a lot of tankies, nor that they are here now suddenly. I'm not denying that US/Western propaganda doesn't exist, nor that it's dangerous and pervasive.
I'm just saying that I, myself, in my own experience, have seen people shilling for China or even Russia, acting like it's a fucking utopia. Russia an oligarchy, just with a different structure than most Western countries. China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil. No amount of America Bad makes China or Russia good.
In terms of propaganda sources, for example just take a look at Russia Today.
Funny, I was just telling @Cowbee about how the tankies I see on here are insufferable & impossible to converse with.
I would say the people here are being very patient with you, as you are spreading xenophobic views out of ignorance and recycled imperialist think tank talking points while also being condescending. You don't get pushback on that by liberals because they agree with you but anyone on the left would be embarrassed to be associated with it.
The appropriate response for someone not generously giving you their time would be to call you, among other things, a liberal and then go on with their day.
But I'll bite. First of all, I don't appreciate the strawmen. I'm not saying that there is a lot of tankies, nor that they are here now suddenly
Liberals suddenly learned the word tankie. Why do you think that is? Rather than a straw man, I understood this as a fact we could all accept.
I'm just saying that I, myself, in my own experience, have seen people shilling for China or even Russia, acting like it's a fucking utopia.
What tankies have you seen that treat Russia like a utopia? What tankies have you seen that treat China like a utopia? I think you are just revealing your owm straw men, and all you have seen is people appreciating asoects of either country. And by the magic of chauvinism, any praise for any aspect of "the enemy" is an uncritical endorsement. Liberals going down this path will often throw in some homophobic ibsults about Putin or Xi.
Russia an oligarchy, just with a different structure than most Western countries.
Russia is capitalist. It is only called an oligarchy because Westerners are racist towards them and need different words for the same thing when the Slavic brainpan does it. This is you uncritically absorbing that racism. They control our thoughts through language, framings, and what is discussed vs. not discussed.
China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil.
It obviously is not.
No amount of America Bad makes China or Russia good.
America Bad both describes the position of the US as the globsl seat of capital and imperislist power and is intended to get people like yourself to have sone persoective, as you are deeply propagandized towards America-centrism.
In terms of propaganda sources, for example just take a look at Russia Today.
RT is, generally speaking, more reliable that the NYT. So what of it?
Again apologies for skimming, you are writing a lot.
I would say the people here are being very patient with you
I agree
Russia is capitalist. It is only called an oligarchy because
You misunderstood me. I'm saying that the US is an oligarchy as well.
you are spreading xenophobic views out of ignorance and recycled imperialist think tank talking points while also being condescending
the first part is your opinion, and the second part is not true. I'm not being condescending, and I'm being equally patient replying to people who are just trolling
RT is, generally speaking, more reliable that the NYT
If you have to compare RT to the NYT, that says more than enough
China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil.
Funny how 95% of the Chinese population approves of and rates favorably this terrible "ruling over" they are being subjected to.
New theory just dropped, everyone: The more people a government represents, the more evil that government is.
New theory just dropped, everyone: The more people a government represents, the more evil that government is.
lmao. I unironically believe this though. The more you concentrate power, the harder it is to keep bad actors from abusing said power.
Funny how 95% of the Chinese population approves of and rates favorably this terrible “ruling over” they are being subjected to.
Most Americans approve of capitalism. Does that make it good too?
lmao. I unironically believe this though.
The more you concentrate power, the harder it is to keep bad actors from abusing said power.
What makes you think the power over those billion+ people is all "concentrated"? Could it be (gasp!) that the power is largely distributed among those people who overwhelmingly support that government? This is just capitalist-realism-brained misunderstanding of how communist parties work.
Most Americans approve of capitalism. Does that make it good too?
No, but that's certainly not what makes it bad.
Could it be (gasp!) that the power is largely distributed among those people who overwhelmingly support that government?
Democracy doesn't work when it's top-down. In the West, the capitalist and ruling class is capable of exerting control on public opinion and therefore on elections. The same is true of the CCP, which can influence public opinion as well. The best way to combat this is by emancipating individuals so they are able to resist state propaganda. China has a dogshit score on the press freedom index, so good luck educating the people on the shortcomings of the government. The government is intransparent and oppressive by design.
the press freedom index
Oh not the Burger Institute Freedom Fries Index?!?!
It's maintained by Reporters without Borders and is not US affiliated
It's maintained by Reporters without Borders and is not US affiliated
literally a 10 second search
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An anarchist like yourself, how much do you trust a Non-Governmental Organizations that is 52% funded by Western states and the rest comes from big corporations or similar fake non-state-actors?
They literally list the National Endowment for Democracy as a main partner!
(I'll help, the NED is the soft power branch of the CIA)
Can you explain how Whole Process People's Democracy is "top-down?" Further, can you explain why it's a good thing for Capitalists to control the press, and not the public? The inverse of public press is private press, and that means ownership by Capitalists and liberals. Surely it's better for the people to control the press, and not the bourgeoisie?
Further, can you explain how the government is "intransparent and oppressive by design?" Just because you don't speak mandarin doesn't mean the process is mystified and opaque for those who live in and contribute to said system.
Can you explain how Whole Process People’s Democracy is “top-down?”
Can you explain to me how it's not?
Further, can you explain why it’s a good thing for Capitalists to control the press, and not the public?
No, because it's not. Nice strawman. Is this public you speak of the government?
You made the claim that the PRC is run from a top-down manner. If you can't substantiate claims you make, then don't make them.
Secondly, if the press is not publicly owned, then it becomes privately owned, and as such is subject to effortless bourgeois domination. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too in order to play the endless contrarion.
I do not misconstrue anything, here. Public property is accomplished from within the ownership of government, a news organization being a worker coop doesn't mean it is immune to bourgeois influence.
true, and a government being elected also doesn't make it immune to bourgeois influence, and especially not to influence from the politicians themselves
Correct, which is why you need to understand that the class in power in the PRC is the proletariat and the party structure gains its legitimacy and power from the bottom-up.
Most Americans approve of capitalism. Does that make it good too?
because "capitalism" and "communism" are loaded words
consider this though:
A year before the presidential election, three-quarters of Americans (76%) believe the country is headed in the wrong direction and the leading Democratic and Republican candidates are viewed broadly unfavorably, according to a new ABC News/Ipsos poll. Only 23% of Americans think the country is headed in the right direction.
When asked whether things in their country are heading in the right direction, or are they off on the wrong track, 90 percent of the respondents from China taking part in this Ipsos survey said they were heading in the right direction.
I don't see what the approval rates of these two countries have to do with anything here. In terms of the economy and infrastructure, China is indeed moving in the right direction. That doesn't mean I think China is a force of good in the world. It's a nation state and should be subject to criticism. And all I'm saying is that there are people who will religiously dogpile you if you try to do that, and I call those people tankies.
China is indeed moving in the right direction. That doesn't mean I think China is a force of good in the world.
Then what would? If the fact that China is doing good in the world is not enough for you to think "it a force for good in the world" then what does it need to do? Oh, I forgot, you think "all nation states are bad by definition" and unironically believe that the more people a government represents, the more evil it is. So in order for China to be "a force for good in the world" China simply has to cease to exist. Got it. Nope, that doesn't align with US interests at all.
It's a nation state and should be subject to criticism. And all I'm saying is that there are people who will religiously dogpile you if you try to do that, and I call those people tankies.
Literally no one on lemmy has ever said China is above criticism. I dare you to find a single instance of that ever happening.
Literally no one on lemmy has ever said China is above criticism. I dare you to find a single instance of that ever happening.
That's not quite what I mean, I think we got sidetracked. I'll give you an example:
https://lemmy.ml/post/21941058
This guy posts the worst propaganda article I've ever read, and gets downvoted to oblivion. Take a look and tell me that reading it doesn't feel like wormtongue himself is whispering into your ear. The issue being lamented in the article is real, and I made clear in my first comment that I agree, but the OP goes off, assumes that I don't like the article because a Russian wrote it, calls me a liberal, puts up 100 strawmen without engaging any of my arguments, and then accuses me of not engaging their (nonexistent) arguments. I wasn't even disagreeing with the article just the way it's written lmao
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Nobody believes Russia is a Utopia.
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Nobody believes the PRC is perfect, but on the right track, and especially nice in Tier 1 and 2 cities.
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The CPC has over 90% support, the fact that China has a government does not mean that is "evil."
90% support makes the whole thing more suspicious to me than anything.
I'm sure a lot of the policy that the CCP has put forward are great, especially if compared to the US counterparts, but that doesn't justify violence and oppression.
Widespread public support for a government is alien to the mind of the liberal
Show
I think I haven't made myself clear, I don't think the number is made up.
90% support makes the whole thing more suspicious to me than anything.
True democracy is when a president has a 37% approval rating.
Alright I'm just joshing with you, but since you're an anarchist you do agree with me on the following, right?
- The Western hegemony is dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. It suppresses voices that dissent from neoliberal dogmas and the military brinkmanship of NATO. It often violently clamps down grassroots movements like BLM or the Free Palestine protests. The Western parliaments consist of different flavours of neoliberalism, neoconservatism and fascism, and not a real representation of an actual "marketplace of ideas", just a theatre of so-called politics.
True democracy is when a president has a 37% approval rating.
unironically funny lmao.
Yes I do agree with you.
Why does it make you suspicious? Do you have legitimate grounds for this? Under the CPC, extreme poverty has been eliminated, and China went from being one of the poorest countries on the planet to a rising superpower in less than a century. When you look at the real, material change in people's lives in as short a timespan as this, it's understandable why they have a high approval rate.
Secondly, I don't know what you're referring to as "justification for violence and oppression."
it’s understandable why they have a high approval rate.
It is. I'm not saying the number is fake. I'm saying that the CCP does not make an effort to make its government transparent and emancipate its citizens so they can form cirtical opinions. Those in power hold all the tools to keep themselves in power.
I'm saying that the CCP does not make an effort to make its government transparent and emancipate its citizens so they can form cirtical opinions.
You said you don't speak Chinese.
You read this where? NYT? Radio Free Asia? Totally-Non-Governmental-Organization coincidentally lead by Atlantic Council ghouls and retired NATO generals?
On what grounds do you say the CPC does not make an effort to make its government transparent? Whole Process People's Democracy, and the general democratic processes within the PRC, require politicians to work their way up from small, local rungs until they reach the top. Secondly, the fact that you don't speak Mandarin and consider all state press to be propaganda rags does not mean that the CPC doesn't showcase transparency to its own citizens in the PRC.
Thirdly, it is a chauvanistic point of view to claim that the PRC doesn't "emancipate its own citizens" so they can "form critical opinions," frankly. This is a sinophobic point of view that claims a country of billions can't think for themselves.
Finally, the claim that "those in power have the tools to keep themselves in power" is utterly unsubstantiated. You're conjuring a view of China that isn't based on any material claims.
Listen, I'm sure you're trying to answer in good-faith, but it's clear that you're entirely unfamiliar with how the PRC works and funtions on a day to day basis. It is entirely okay to admit to not knowing much about it, taking a break from the keyboard, and reading up on concepts like Whole Process People's Democracy. I think it would benefit you greatly.
I know you're an Anarchist, but Mao has fantastic advice for this kind of subject matter:
Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn't that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? Quite a few comrades always keep their eyes shut and talk nonsense, and for a Communist that is disgraceful. How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense?
It won't do!
It won't do!
You must investigate!
You must not talk nonsense!
I also recommend my introductory Marxism-Leninism reading list, and am happy to answer any questions you might have.
Okay fine if I have time tmrw I'll do some extra reading on WPPD. Got a good resource?
Here's an infographic showing the "bottom-up-top-down" structure of the CPC
Here's a decent video going over Whole Process People's Democracy.
Here's an infographic showing the makeup of government.
And you can always ask questions.
The CPC is supported from the bottom-up, all power at the top flows from the bottom, but policy is implemented top-down. The power invested in the top comes from below.
cheers, I'll take a look at these but also look for non government-sponsored sources
I don't think whether or not the legal structure of the political system is government funded or not makes a difference, it's literally how it exists. You can take out the positive spin and the underlying facts are the same, depending on "non-government source" you're going to run into US-sponsored propaganda (the US approved billions in spreading anti-PRC propaganda by the way).
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In terms of propaganda sources, for example just take a look at Russia Today.
You think Russia Today accounts for the massive worldwide upswell in communist and anti-imperialist sentiment over the last few years
My guy, you clearly just listed the first Russian news outlet you could think of. In the very last sentence too, after like a paragraph of tangential whining, as if anybody asked. It's such a transparent attempt to bait my attention away from your inability to defend your dumbass theory, and then you top it off with "uhh anyway, millions of people around the world suddenly got hooked on Russia Today." Deeply unserious. I assume you can pull up google trends and verify this massive spike in readership, right?
Yeah man, it's not the warmongering, the lies, the genocide, the complete capitalist destruction of any social fabric, hope for the future, international peace or survivable environment. It's just the sinister Chinese and die Russich swine working to sow dissent among us freedom loving people.
You are a dipshit, a liberal, and a useful idiot for fascism, but I repeat myself. One thing you are currently not is any kind of leftist.
You think Russia Today accounts for the massive worldwide upswell in communist and anti-imperialist sentiment over the last few years
No? When did I say that? You seem to think I'm calling everybody here a tankie (or my definition thereof). I'm not.
as if anybody asked.
I was literally asked
Yeah man, it’s not the warmongering, the lies, the genocide, the complete capitalist destruction of any social fabric, hope for the future, international peace or survivable environment. It’s just the sinister Chinese and die Russich swine working to sow dissent among us
Jesus Christ I cannot make this any more clear, I am not saying that China or Russia are the top threats and that we need to save liberal democracy lmao. I criticize China, you immediately assume that I'm a liberal and your enemy. You argue in bad faith, pellet me with strawmen and make 100 assumptions about what you think my opinions are. Which is exactly the kind of behavior I'm talking about.
At least most of the other people replying to my comment were interesting to speak to and argued in good faith. I might learn something from them. I won't learn anything from you and you aren't interested in learning anything from me.
You have proven my point :)
acting like it's a fucking utopia.
I don't appreciate the strawmen.
China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil.
Wait what? You'd prefer to Balkanize China into a several million anarchist direct democracy communes? Or what? How would that work in 2024?
You're implying that I'm the one setting up a strawman by claiming that people are acting a certain way. This is from my personal experience. I'm not accusing you or everyone here of being a tankie but it seems like everybody here identifies as one. Maybe we have a different definition of the word. I was trying to clarify my definition.
You’d prefer to Balkanize China into a several million anarchist direct democracy communes? Or what? How would that work in 2024?
No, and I don't think any smart anarchist is advocating for some crazy revolution involving a coup or whatever. I advocate for building strong local communities, that are heavily interconnected. "Communes" as such are kind of impossible since most people live in cities anyway. We need to build resilient networks that can slowly replace oppressive centralized power. Personally I also don't subscribe to only 100% anarchism, my ideology is also influenced by socialism, syndicalism and marxism.
We need to build resilient networks that can slowly replace oppressive centralized power.
hmm, maybe a truly massive party with many cadres around the country? perhaps? maybe?
I advocate for building strong local communities, that are heavily interconnected.
Are you 100% sure there's nothing like this in China?
so how to do this neat leftcom kind of stuff, without some kind of centralization, when also you simultaneously need to
- modernize your country, literally everything from agriculture, to healthcare and heavy industry and so on
- defend yourself from antagonistic countries
- defend yourself from giant multinational corpos who'd jump at the chance to plunder your resources
- defend yourself from fascist/monarchist elements inside your country
I mean in actual practice in a real historical scenario?
This debate went way off the rails, but maybe tell me about how you think things should go. For example what would be a way for the US to transition to communism.
Nah, I give up at this point and Xi only paid me for this long, my shift is over.
Read Parenti and others.Alright, well thanks for engaging with me I know I was ruffling feathers.
