The ebike class 1/2/3 concept is stupid puritan nonsense driven by cyclist jealousy and serves only to limit the usefulness of ebikes as car replacements.
I'll engage with the struggle session: I think these distinctions are good actually, as they clarify the gradients between a bicycle and a moped. The 20mph speed limit in particular I think is a pretty important safety feature to have, and a reasonable speed limit on bike paths. The difference between 20mph and 28mph is not trivial, you're doubling your kinetic energy.
I do agree that Class 3 without a throttle is silly, I think that's a state-specific rule.
The distinctions between a bicycle and a(n electric, fuck those loud little gas motors) moped are a historical relic and should be blurred away to total unrecognizability.
what would you say the difference is between a moped and a motorcycle?
So if bicycle = moped and moped = motorcycle, ebikes are capable of highway speeds. Do you think they should require driver's licenses?
driver's license? what's next, a license to make toast in my own damn toaster‽‽
I intuitively feel that what the people that are opposed to drivers licenses are saying makes sense but yeah, libertarians. Extremism of any kind only works in an ideal world, I suppose.
Why should surgeons have to be schooled? Just let them figure it out. Why should forklift drivers be licensed?
that was a room full of unintentional clowns and my initial comment was a joke
Cars should require extensive licenses, but nothing smaller. The best thing we can do to improve safety right now is decrease the number of cars on the road.
I don't think you should be able to drive a motorcycle without a license (which should require taking a course and exam). They hit 140+mph and cannot brake as quickly as cars. Without knowing how to ride and to follow rules of the road, they are a life-threatening danger to other people.
Big disagree on the "no licensing for motorcycles". When I took my motorcycle class, it was very terrifying seeing other students barely able to operate the light learner bikes, like 200cc suzukis. During our breaks, the worst riders in class always said how they wanted a big ole Harley or similar cruiser but had almost no aptitude for balance or control of the learner bike.
Everyone in the class passed and it equated to a DMV road test and I am genuinely afraid for them on the road.
I think motorcycle education should be more extensive. I think part of what makes motorcycling so dangerous(aside from the obvious wrecking balls that cars are), is inexperienced riders just falling down completely on their own and ending up very injured.
I think driver's licenses serve more to give cops something to harass people over than they do to demonstrate any kind of competence.
What is the licensing procedure like in other countries? Are there requisite multi-day classes?
Casualties and "accidents" in cars aren't low, and driver's licenses don't help. If we want everyone to know some important safety information, just add it to the public school curriculum. The existence of driver's licenses is one of the smaller problems with cars existing, because in practice they mostly just serve as a way to force most people to carry photo ID with them everywhere and give cops one more thing to bother people about.
Nope, these classes are derived from European legislation. A class 3 bike with a throttle isn't considered as a bicycle here.
What the fuck why? Is there a class 4 bike that can go 55, but isn't allowed to have brakes?
We have 2 classes of mopeds. The ones that are allowed to reach speed up to 25 km/h (class A - without license) and the ones that go up to 45 km/h (class B - with license. These mopeds have combustion engines and no usable pedals. E-bikes with a throttle are considered electrical mopeds and aren't categorized as e-bikes anymore.
E-bikes or mopeds aren't allowed to reach speeds above 45 km/h.
Class 1 shouldn't exist, and class 3 should have a throttle. I do think 45 kmh/28 mph is a reasonable top speed though. It's a bicycle, not a motorcycle. Safety is a reasonable concern to have.
My worst moto accidents have all been under 50km/h so far. Shit hurts even with gear. A friend got a standing scooter that does 80km/h, advised him to get full gear. He at least got a proper helmet but nothing really else. Shit is terrifying to think people are ripping around over 50km/h with no proper gear or infrastructure.
My EUC tops out at 55kmh/34mph and it's still not fast enough for the times I'm forced by bad infrastructure to contend with cars
Ebikes should just be unregulated motorcycles I can take on the bike path
what bike lanes really need is people going 35mph on a vehicle that weighs >50lbs
i would love to be biking on a non-ebike and have a teen hit me at 65 mph headon because they just got a new toy
Yes, I too would prefer that to the same teen hitting me in their new car
Both would be terrible, I think limiting the chances of both of those terrible things happening is good
I can hit 35mph and hold it with a decent downhill grade and that feels fine to me.
Any collision over 30mph is potentially lethal to any person involved
These are European classes seeping through. The class C e-bikes are tremendously popular in Belgium, The Netherlands and Germany and are replacing cars for commutes.
In Belgium the adoption is huge because the class C (45 km/h) are allowed on regular bicycle paths and on the road where max speed is 50 km/h (31 mph). They are specifically useful on our cycle highways infrastructure for medium long distances. Daily commutes by bike of 20 to 30 km are quite common now.
A class 3 bike requires a license plate, insurance and a driver's license.
Class 3 bikes aren't allowed on mixed bicycle pedestrian infrastructure.
Class 2 bikes are required to follow the same regulation as mopeds and you can ride them from age 16.
It's all very logical if you place these classes in their proper environment.
I did a 20km commute for a month in one of the Low countries and it was a very pleasant way to spend the morning. In the warmer months at least.
My daily commute is just under 20 Km's on average. I started doing it by speed Pedelec (Class C) a few years ago. It seems that my commute has become father on average because I don't have to bother about parking space (most companies around here don't have staff parking lots) and rush hour trafic. I leave for work 10 minutes later than I did by car.
When the weather is really bad I use public transport, which is fine. I invested in decent clothing to keep me cool, warm or dry and that has been one of the best investment ever.
Unlike other micromobility vehicles, ebikes are regulated into three classes as shown in the chart. The large majority of ebike models sold are class 1, meaning they have no throttle and the motor will not exceed 20mph. Many cities only permit class 1 ebikes, though this is, as another commenter pointed out, difficult to enforce and rarely enforced.
This is all caused by latent puritanism, specifically a reflexive aversion to things that are new, fun, and cool. Cyclists are jealous of ebikes passing them without apparent effort, while anti-cyclist brainworms types freak out about maniac cyclists going too fast and splitting lanes in their beloved car roads. These two forces which are naturally in opposition come together to hobble ebikes.
Cyclists are jealous of ebikes passing them without apparent effort
As a cylclist...no this is not it at all, and the fact that you think this at all tells me you're definitely not a biker.
As a cyclist I'm terrified of ebikes flying by me at 20mph wearing zero proective gear without notifying me that they're flying by me. Or flying at me. Or flying by me on the sidewalk when I'm a pedestrian. Or flying by my door on the sidewalk when I'm literally just trying to get my mail. Or flying through a stop sign at me when I'm walking, biking, or driving. Or any of the other ridiculous things ebikers tend to do at maximum speed with absolutely flagrant disregard for literally anyone's safety. Getting up to 20mph on a pedal bike requires some serious effort and distance so most people aren't zipping around on sidewalks or on city streets or on gravel bike trails at 20 mph. E bikers though have one setting and it's "hit the speed limiter" regardless of their environment or how safe it might be.
Honestly it's less the bikes that are the problem it's the people on them. Frequent bikers use body language, signals, words, and sounds to help each other identify where we are and where we're going in order to keep all of us safe out there. We ding our bells our shout "on your left" when passing. We make eye contact and adjust our speed to pass each other without stopping at intersections. We stay in our lanes and help protect each other from cars when we're on the roads and on the trails. E Bikers don't do any of this shit, they just whizz around everyone at top speed without having any respect AT ALL for anyone else on the road. They're like the BMW drivers of the bike world. It's a safety hazard for them with regards to their unexpected behaviors and cars, which isn't really my business I guess. But what is my business is when it's a safety hazard for me, and that's what basically every rich asshole on an e bike has become.
I'm not saying ban them or anything like that, banning things is generally dumb, but we absolutely need to do something to deal with the massive safety hazard they're causing (along with electric scooters) in our already horribly unsafe bike lanes. If classifying them by "level of safety hazard they present" helps us do that then I'm all for it. At the very least I don't think any motorized vehicle should be allowed in bike lanes or bike trails unless they're specifically motorized for accessibility rather than for dickhead speed. They should be relegated to the spots where other motorized vehicles are until and unless the people who use them can prove that they can safely exist in spaces reserved for human powered vehicles only.
So basically fuck e bikers, stop putting everyone on a bike in more danger than we already are and maybe we'll change our mind about you.
Look below to see an example of
BMW driversebikers who have no clue that other people use the infrastructure they're destroyingI gotta say, E-bikes do sneak up on you with 0 warning, and they really only travel at maximum speed, but I think the easy solution is ban cars and appropriate the roads for e-bikes, leave bike paths for pedal-powered.
Definitely in favor of just ridding the universe of cars and separating smaller lanes out for various better modes of transit. That keeps everyone safer
Fuck off with this divisive bullshit. When I biked in Asia where motorbikes are the norm, no motorcyclist ever gave me any shit for being on a bicycle, and I never had any problems with a motorcycle. The real threats on the road are cars, not other bikers.
I mean that's great in Asia, I have never biked in Asia. Sounds like they're fostering a culture where everyone using non-car vehicles learn to share the road, and that's great. Shame we aren't doing that here.
I have biked frequently in a number of US cities and the number of times I've been run off the bike lane by e bikers being absolute dickheads is ridiculous. I bike many times a week in my major US city and e bikers / e scooters are a goddamn menace. So are cars by the way, no idea why both of you are somehow strawmanning me as if I think cars aren't dangerous. I am more afraid of being hit by a car than I am an e bike, but I'm more afraid of being hit by an e bike than I am a manual bike. Turns out more than one thing can be dangerous at a time, who knew.
Those ebikers will become literal BMW drivers if ebikes become inconvenient. At least you have mutually assured destruction with the ebikers.
The fact that they don't require a throttle or engine noise at high speeds is insane though.
motor bikes and scooters are usually not a problem, people have to get a license for them which weeds out the worst offenders, and they're loud and easy to spot. E-bikes have that electric car problem, where they'll accelerate completely silently and appear out of nowhere right behind you. just make ebikes require a quick and cheap license/training course and make them have fake engine sounds, ezpz
I know right? Heaven forbid I care one tiny ounce about my safety and the safety of others on the road. Your PERSONAL FREEDUMB is more important than that isn't it
That literally isn't true. In fact I would argue the opposite; if less people feel safe taking other modes of transit because of e bikers flying around being dickbags, wouldn't you agree that drives people towards cars? The safer and easier and more accessible non-car infrastructure is for everyone in all modes of transit the more likely people will choose a non car mode of transit. That's just common sense. You're not doing the service to bike infrastructure that you think you are
Cars are the biggest impediment to bicycle adoption by far. Get this through your head. There are no roving gangs of ebikers attacking other cyclists.
Only one thing can be true at a time and I only have the capacity in my brain to care about literally one issue at a time regardless of how valid other issues are
Ebikes and cars are not even on the same order of magnitude of danger to cyclists. Get out of here with this false equivalency.
Do you really think ebikers are out here trying to ram as many people as possible? You cannot ram someone on a 2-wheeler, you will eat shit.
My town says it forbids Class 3 ebikes on the trail system but I've yet to see a checkpoint
Exactly. We have service paths along canals that once we're used to pull barges. Now they are popular bicycle connections because of the straight and flat path they offer. Class C bikes were prohibited to take these roads for a while but now they changed regulation to limit the speed along these paths to 30 km/h (19 mph).
cant really enforce that like you can enforce not allowing a type of bike
Some things don’t truly have an enforcement mechanism but are intended as public guidance
It's basically impossible to enforce, but it does mean that most ebikes available for sale are class 1.
agreed, I see it as more of an after-the-fact issue, like if some shithead is burning down the trail at 28 mph and there's an incident, they'll nail em with that plus whatever other charges
I love eBikes when they're used to go at regular bike speeds, but with less effort. Going at 20mph in an urban bike lane is stupid
I see more full on gas powered highway speed motorcyclists without helmets than with. That's not an argument for limiting speed, some people are just dumb.
Yeah, that said even on an Ebike, once you get past 35kph or so things get a bit dicey. I think there's an informal limit on most bike lanes here of 30kph anyway.
In the context of a poorly planned US car centric hellscape, the speed and capability restrictions designed for a city with good bicycle infrastructure and a common culture of most people taking the bicycle to their destinations make no sense and only serve as impediments to ebikes being viable car replacements.
The thing that most of the people here seem to overlook is that class 3 bikes exist because of EU legislation that came into effect in 2016. They are required to have a license plate, insurance and the rider has to have a license and a minimal age of 16.
Belgium seems to be the only country to allow them on regular bicycle infrastructure in the EU but the Netherlands are experimenting with that too.
At least here it's that you can totally ride bigger e-bikes, you just need a licence and insurance. Which sucks, but does make some sense, I guess.
