Permanently Deleted
by all means be suspicious of organised religion, but also: log off of r*dd*t
You get out of religion what you put into it. Being a Muslim led to me becoming strongly ant-imperialist from a young age, which in turn led to me becoming left wing and getting into Marx, Lenin etc.
There are reactionaries in every walk of life, I think our job as leftists is to stop institutional religion from stoking these reactionary tendencies, and it can be done by turning those very same religious texts and tenets back at them, though maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part, as I don't have many other options for trying to reach out my friends and family on such subjects.
If you are interested in the relationship between Marxism and the Muslim world, I would say Maxime Rodinson's books on the subject are worth a read. It's not exactly a story of success of course as he looks to Revolutions in Arab countries from the 50s-70s as case studies, but there are some interesting lessons to learn there I think.
I am curious if my intuition on this is correct:
Much of that is not due to Islam as such, but rather affiliation with Palestine.
Becoming informed on the Israel–Palestine conflict is a direct path to anti-imperialism.Palestine is part of it, and of course I can't speak for everyone, but for me and most others in my age group (mid 20s) it was really growing up in a post 9/11 western country that set me on this path. You try to figure out why you're so hated for the actions of terrorists you have nothing to do with, then you realise that terrorism was a direct consequence of US Imperialism. And then once you accept that Imperialism is the highest stage of Capitalism things start to become a lot clearer.
As for the relgious texts themselves, some people might try to tell you that Islam has fairly Social Democratic principles and in some ways it does, but I think it's more of a mixed bag, and people tend to project their own views, be it left wing or right wing, onto the texts. It's not too difficult to do so in either case as the text does not have strict and clearly outlined political ideology and there are contradictions in the text which begin to make more sense when you understand the context in which the faith emerged.
The most important people need to understand, especially a lot of Muslims who I think are in denial about this, is that there is no such thing as one true primitive Islam, it has literally never existed from a historical point of view and has been under a constant state of change and reform, sometimes even influenced by outside western factors (a spicy take that would land me in a lot of trouble at parties lmao). I choose to take that as on opportunity to explore how the religion can be used to aid and be included in a Communist vision of the future.
then you realise that terrorism was a direct consequence of US Imperialism.
I wonder how that will be different for the next generation since Osama bin Laden was an anti-imperialist, but ISIS was rooted more in religious fundamentalism.
That step from reading 9/11 as caused by religious fundamentalism versus anti-imperialism is still much easier to make in the context of Israel–Palestine.
There is something to be said for hypercapitalism destroying Arab culture, but these oil states were still made rich from it, and not to mention complicit.
It is just that without Israel–Palestine, I would imagine people becoming either anarchist, or more reactionary instead, rather than anti-imperialist and eventually communist.What concerns me honestly is that Arab states have shifted dramatically their tactics in untangling the Israel–Palestine situation; normalizing relations with Israel, but also setting up embassies in Palestinian territories.
To what extent might the elites in these Arab states be realizing that having such an obvious case study of imperialism exist nearby is radicalizing their populations against their own governments.The thing most unclear to me in current global politics is the elites in Arab states, because I cannot tell if they are neoliberal, or have started shifting in a China direction.
Nice thing about autocracies is they can be fixed so easily. The way China is working to stabilize governments in Africa for example, by selling military drones and such, and helping even autocrats consolidate power, I wonder if they are just trying to get an interface to negotiate with and eventually control the situation via diplomacy.My point is, I can see it going both ways: either Arab states have gone totally nihilistic, or they are finally trying to solve Israel–Palestine diplomatically for humanitarian reasons.
Anyway, admittedly this comment was rather out there; but I really would like to know what others think about all this.
I’m pretty sure r/Islam is full of English speaking ARAB chuds
Totally baseless assumption, Arabs on reddit are either braindead nationalists fantasizing about massacring muslim brotherhood members or communists, with the occasional new atheist ancap
Well I just assumed that’s the case because most of the Muslims I meet and interact with in the US are super progressive
How does that translate into r/Islam being full of ARAB chuds?
I don’t really think there would be any real way to tell what Arabs on reddit political leanings are tbh.
I mean it's easy to figure out by reading the polls taken annually on r/Arabs and the 20 something-plus Arab country subs
You know that Islam isn't a singular monolithic ideology, right? Like any religion, specific sects can be great allies to the Left while others are committed enemies. Most people who describe themselves as religious don't even have strongly-held theological or political beliefs, and the ones they do hold are often rife with contradictions. This is a Bill Maher tier post.
Not sure if this is a bit, but just because some religious people use their religion as a justification and motivation to be reactionary shitters doesn't mean that to other religious people their religion isn't a force in their lives that motivates them to be compassionate and seek justice.
Selection bias definitely plays a part but I've known a lot more of the latter than the former.
Oh yeah r/Islam user Supernihari12 is a relevant or representative theological voice for Islam. What a genius analysis. You are two steps from the Chud take that Muslims prevent social progressivism in the world.
Glad we managed to import all the good parts of reddit over here as well.
just wanted to come here and say that im muslim and i find a lot of peace in all the spiritual aspects of islam
Also the idea that all Christians are more secular than all Muslims is ridiculous. European/ex-Soviet Muslim countries are certainly more secular than the American Bible Belt. Most Muslim traditions around the world are nothing like the Wahhabi modernity-rejecting Saudis, who just happen to be the ones spreading their influence everywhere with their oil money and CIA help.
All good opinions in the thread and i want to add another thing: Your view of Islam will differ wildly if you're leftist in a muslim majority country vs in muslim diaspora in a western country
Imagine trying to educate an Iranian leftist on islam after they've been fucked over by islamists after the revolution
This is /r/atheism level bullshit, you are taking the posts from a reactionary website and going “aha! religion is reactionary!” Well duh! Islam has a billion believers some of them communists. other fascists, as well as everything in-between. And they justify following their faith accordingly.
For most people religion is just a salve in the wound. Should we oppose discrimination whenever and where-ever it occurs regardless of reasoning, yes. but please make a better argument than a “redditor said something stupid”.
I get what you're saying. I once believed it myself.
But you are throwing people like the diggers and the EZLN and the Narodniks of 1905 under the bus here.
Religion has its problems, but it's not just the opiate of the masses, it can also be the seed of consciousness.
I mean, the source for this is a reddit user. We spend all our time dunking on reddit for a reason, the average user is not left wing.
Yeah let's just repeat the same mistakes previous generations of communists did and antagonize the 90% or so of people that are religious in some way instead of focusing on the much fewer reactionaries and bigots
