I'm gonna repost a summary comment that I made the other day, but the tldr is that "China bad" on this one, and this site really needs to get it's shit together and have a better analysis of post-revolutionary China. It's really not difficult to offer a critical analysis from the left (starting with the Tiennamen Square 1989 incident, and carrying on to the modern day). You can do it among leftists/communists/Marxists without toeing the US State Department line. Google the "Chinese New Left" and read Wang Hui (and others). Such topics should not be discussed with liberals, since they neither understand our viewpoint, neither do they have anything useful to contribute.
Anyway, just like with the BLM 2020 protests, there are many comrades mixed with liberals, but the frustration is real, and the objectives of both are mostly good. Although the petite burgeois students rose to the "leadership" positions of the protests since they had the strongest views/motivations, there were many genuine comrades who were a part of it as well (there were like a million people or something like that), so "necessary evil" would be beyond disrespectful imo. Far more care should be put into our review of the events of spring 1989 than that.
But yeah like I said here are a few additional notes from my comment the other day:
the protests were a mix of liberals and leftists without a very coherent ideology across the ~1m people who came out during the 7 weeks (think OWS or BLM 2020)
Most protestors were probably not calling for the overthrowing of the government, but they definitely wanted a higher level of democracy, especially as Deng’s revisionism from Mao’s policies detached government officials and politics from the daily lives of workers.
Most protestors didn’t want to overthrow the government or “yearn for freedom” obv that’s CIA bullshit. [Oops said this twice, but w/e]
A bunch of student liberal dweebs had the loudest voices, but they weren’t necessarily representative of the entire protests (since there wasn’t a lot of organization)
The people were largely frustrated by watching the consequences of “opening up” their economy, though they were happy to have access to western brands or whatever. It happened in the USSR too where workers want it both ways, and don’t always realize how good they had it.
it’s a failure of Deng and the CPC to do anything but turn their nose up at the ~1m people at their doorstep and offer no substantial response. Deng doesn’t have any high ground to call these people “liberal wreckers” if anything, so I’m not really sure what ground he/they are supposed to stand on.
yes, the violence happened on the side streets of Beijing, but several hundred people were killed by PLA soldiers when they were told to use live fire on unarmed crowds. This was a result of a crackdown of the “Tiennamen Square protests” even though it occured outside of the square.
Yes a handful of soldiers were killed by protestors in some instances, but that doesn’t mean that the whole thing wasn't fumbled repeatedly by Deng and his administration. It’s really not worth my defense (besides the Western exaggerations and misinterpretations of the events for their propaganda purposes of course).
Yes, The Gate of Heavenly Peace by Carma Hinton is very helpful to understanding the context of the situation. Both sides (government and protestors) had a bunch of qualms about it, which is a pretty good place for it to be. If you haven't seen it, check it out before jumping in to the "China good" or Tienanmen '89 discourse, it only 3 hours and while not exhaustive, will get you started on things.
P.S. Count how many times the protestors are shown singing The Internationale and gtfo of here with the "necessary evil to combat liberalism" bs (I know it's due to a lack of information, but it's a bit frustrating to see).
Yes, thanks for the rec, I'll definitely check it out. I'm definitely trying to dig deeper into Chinese history since I can see (like most of us on this sub) that they are in the process of securing their spot in the world, while Western capitalism is starting to look a bit shaky ("crumbling" is a bit strong imo, but we'll see). It's definitely a lot more complicated than "China good/bad" of course.
BTW, I'm working on a personal project that a couple of other Cha.Cha users are helping out with if you're interested. It's in its earliest stages, but the end goal would be a sort of "Khan Academy" for socialism, and it seems like you might have some knowledge to contribute if you're interested. DM me if you want to chat more about it and see what we're up to (and anyone else can as well).
I'm gonna repost a summary comment that I made the other day, but the tldr is that "China bad" on this one, and this site really needs to get it's shit together and have a better analysis of post-revolutionary China. It's really not difficult to offer a critical analysis from the left (starting with the Tiennamen Square 1989 incident, and carrying on to the modern day). You can do it among leftists/communists/Marxists without toeing the US State Department line. Google the "Chinese New Left" and read Wang Hui (and others). Such topics should not be discussed with liberals, since they neither understand our viewpoint, neither do they have anything useful to contribute.
Anyway, just like with the BLM 2020 protests, there are many comrades mixed with liberals, but the frustration is real, and the objectives of both are mostly good. Although the petite burgeois students rose to the "leadership" positions of the protests since they had the strongest views/motivations, there were many genuine comrades who were a part of it as well (there were like a million people or something like that), so "necessary evil" would be beyond disrespectful imo. Far more care should be put into our review of the events of spring 1989 than that.
But yeah like I said here are a few additional notes from my comment the other day:
the protests were a mix of liberals and leftists without a very coherent ideology across the ~1m people who came out during the 7 weeks (think OWS or BLM 2020)
Most protestors were probably not calling for the overthrowing of the government, but they definitely wanted a higher level of democracy, especially as Deng’s revisionism from Mao’s policies detached government officials and politics from the daily lives of workers.
Most protestors didn’t want to overthrow the government or “yearn for freedom” obv that’s CIA bullshit. [Oops said this twice, but w/e]
A bunch of student liberal dweebs had the loudest voices, but they weren’t necessarily representative of the entire protests (since there wasn’t a lot of organization)
The people were largely frustrated by watching the consequences of “opening up” their economy, though they were happy to have access to western brands or whatever. It happened in the USSR too where workers want it both ways, and don’t always realize how good they had it.
it’s a failure of Deng and the CPC to do anything but turn their nose up at the ~1m people at their doorstep and offer no substantial response. Deng doesn’t have any high ground to call these people “liberal wreckers” if anything, so I’m not really sure what ground he/they are supposed to stand on.
yes, the violence happened on the side streets of Beijing, but several hundred people were killed by PLA soldiers when they were told to use live fire on unarmed crowds. This was a result of a crackdown of the “Tiennamen Square protests” even though it occured outside of the square.
Yes a handful of soldiers were killed by protestors in some instances, but that doesn’t mean that the whole thing wasn't fumbled repeatedly by Deng and his administration. It’s really not worth my defense (besides the Western exaggerations and misinterpretations of the events for their propaganda purposes of course).
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Yes, The Gate of Heavenly Peace by Carma Hinton is very helpful to understanding the context of the situation. Both sides (government and protestors) had a bunch of qualms about it, which is a pretty good place for it to be. If you haven't seen it, check it out before jumping in to the "China good" or Tienanmen '89 discourse, it only 3 hours and while not exhaustive, will get you started on things.
P.S. Count how many times the protestors are shown singing The Internationale and gtfo of here with the "necessary evil to combat liberalism" bs (I know it's due to a lack of information, but it's a bit frustrating to see).
deleted by creator
Yes, thanks for the rec, I'll definitely check it out. I'm definitely trying to dig deeper into Chinese history since I can see (like most of us on this sub) that they are in the process of securing their spot in the world, while Western capitalism is starting to look a bit shaky ("crumbling" is a bit strong imo, but we'll see). It's definitely a lot more complicated than "China good/bad" of course.
BTW, I'm working on a personal project that a couple of other Cha.Cha users are helping out with if you're interested. It's in its earliest stages, but the end goal would be a sort of "Khan Academy" for socialism, and it seems like you might have some knowledge to contribute if you're interested. DM me if you want to chat more about it and see what we're up to (and anyone else can as well).