I don't hate y'all, but some of the posts here can be indigestable.
Some posts simply assume everyone is on the same page with something - which is likely true, since you've been a community for a long time.
Maybe I'll come back and edit this with an example at some point.
They won’t let me order vegan pizza anymore because the phone is fascist and “summoning my pizza slaves with a bourgeois app” is “bad vibes”
Yeah y'know what I actually refuse to use delivery apps and have convinced all my friends not too either, if you want takeout food go walk and get it yourself OR make sure you use fast food places that hire there own drivers and pay them a good wage.
Delivery apps are human slavery, plain and simple; most delivery drivers on those things make below min wage.
I read a great article about this, they made the comparision between delivery 0 hour drivers and servants, and how all these apps do is dissociate the average consumer from what the relationship actually is, which is basically paying a servant to deliver you food.
(in a lot of cultures there are exemptions for minimum wage for servants and they are of a lower caste, see parasite the movie)
You're witnessing us after we've gone through countless internal debates and purges, some of which will always be legendary. We had a problem with transphobes at the start, they're all gone. We had a really bizarre fight for about a week over whether or not cats should be allowed outside.
My favorite of ours was the weirdly intense debate over if it's ok to stack rocks next to or inside of a river.
There was also BMF, one of the strangest people to ever live. My personal favorite was @LiberalSocialist@hexbear.net, who was the most contradictory poster we had. You'd think LiberalSocialist was an elaborate Andy Kaufman level bit of someone pretending to be an annoying liberal, but I think it's always been unclear whether it was a gimmick or not.
Something that's crucial for the rock stacking: On the one side was a hydrologist with sources and calm and patient reasoning explaining how that, yes while climate change and ecoside is a result of this capitalist system and as such there is no individual solutions to it, in this instance your individual actions are actually very harmful, so please don't stack rocks. It's not just a tiny thing, it's actually very harmful, so please don't stack rocks.
On the other side was a mix of users going either "yeah, but I just feel like it isn't an issue" and users going "fuck you I'm gonna stack rocks anyway" as if rock-stacking was their livelyhood and users trying to rules-lawyer the thing like "what if it isn't a running stream? What if I'm in a desert? What if it's volcanic rocks?" The reaction was wildly outsized, but apparently hexbear has a large rock-stacking userbase.
Edit: found the original thread https://hexbear.net/post/249555?scrollToComments=false
On the other side was a mix of users going either "yeah, but I just feel like it isn't an issue" and users going "fuck you I'm gonna stack rocks anyway" as if rock-stacking was their livelyhood and users trying to rules-lawyer the thing like "what if it isn't a running stream? What if I'm in a desert? What if it's volcanic rocks?" The reaction was wildly outsized, but apparently hexbear has a large rock-stacking userbase
Critical stage "let people enjoy things" ideology, right there, where it's so spiteful against even the slightest suggestion of behavior improvement that rock stacking becomes a weird contrarian mandate to stick it to the scolds.
Ok, but what about this one beach in Bretagne, France, where people have been stacking rocks for years and there are actually some pretty impressive stacks?
(/s, tho there actually is a place like that and I now have conflicted feelings about it)
On the other side was a mix of users going either "yeah, but I just feel like it isn't an issue" and users going "fuck you I'm gonna stack rocks anyway" as if rock-stacking was their livelyhood and users trying to rules-lawyer the thing like "what if it isn't a running stream? What if I'm in a desert? What if it's volcanic rocks?" The reaction was wildly outsized, but apparently hexbear has a large rock-stacking userbase
More like a userbase of nerds who never leave their houses since it's impossible to go camping and not be hit with signs like these. That whole stupid struggle session was a bunch of nerds who never went camping and seeing decades-old signs about how you're not supposed to disturb the environment like picking up stream rocks trying to argue that not disturbing the environment like picking up stream rocks is somehow ultraleftism.
I forgot how they started arguing against leave no trace as well lol. It was honestly infuriating.
I remember someone going "I just don't think it matters if I mess up a flower bloom or stack some rocks" and then they were told that it did matter and how it mattered and they just went "yeah I just don't think that makes sense."
Lot of "well but what if I wanna stack rocks?" And "what if I'm terminally depressed and stacking rocks is my only outlet?"
I remember reading that thread when it happened, and thinking how ridiculous that all was. Like, it was something I’d never really thought much about but I was just like oh ok, that makes sense, I’ll be sure to remember not to fuck around with rocks. The responses were baffling. Do you have the link so I could revisit it?
Eh. This still remains clearly a product of Ameri-centrism in my mind: An America-only issue was being touted as a global problem everyone should be aware of, so everybody else in the world who has never seen or even imagined this weird shit will regard it as so uncommon as to not matter. And no, I don't think one side was being particularly more 'calm and patient' than the other.
What are you talking about? The thing was a user that shared how a specific practice was bad. The practice itself is not one tied to a specific region, nor where any of the disagreements rooted in specific regions or culture tied to specific regions. How is "stacking rocks" American? Are other people's incapable of stacking rocks? Do they not have water streams?
How is "stacking rocks is very bad for the streams" an American issue? People everywhere do it. It isn't even an outspread thing. The user just posted about it to discourage others. It was so minor. I'm not even american myself, and I (thankfully) dont live in the us. It was still relevant to me.
I'm also kinda sick of the "it's America centric" what if it was? A large part of the userbase is american? Are they not allowed to discuss things relevant to America?
I have literally never heard of it happening anywhere else in the world. I never said American things couldn't be talked about, but talking about it like it's a ubiquitous practice, and then getting angry at people who don't understand why it's an issue, is just miscommunication, not a big disagreement. And miscommunications caused by America-centrism is a very tiring affair on the internet. Just prepend the post with "Hey Americans:" and there wouldn't have been any real discussion.
but talking about it like it's a ubiquitous practice, and then getting angry at people who don't understand why it's an issue, is just miscommunication.
I have no idea how you could possibly have gotten that from what I wrote.
At no point did I mention America, yet it's somehow American because you haven't heard of it?
At no point did I say it was ubiquitous (in fact I've just said it wasn't).
At no point was the issue one of something widespread being bad.
At no point did I write that they talked about it like it's a common thing.
You are reading what you want, rather than what the text says.
A user calmy and patiently explained why and how stacking rocks near waterstreams was bad. This made other users irrationally angry.
The issue was never one of miscommunication, as I have written already. The whole thing was communicated clearly. Users that understood what the practice was, and understood the reasoning for it being bad, were angry that they were being told it was bad and they shouldn't do it.
I'm really struggling to see how you could have gotten any of this from what I wrote. Did you learn to read in that weird way where you just memorized the shape of words, rather than the phonics of letters?
Hey Americans:" and there wouldn't have been any real discussion.
I was literally in that struggle thread (different account) - I wasn't claiming you said certain things, I was commenting on what that thread was. Unless we're talking about entirely different threads about the same thing.
I was also in that thread at the time.
I assumed you were claiming I said these things, as I'd already once asked how you thought it was an American thing, and since you were using "you" phrases. I guess that's the problem with English where the plural and the personal is the same.
It was at no point an american thing specifically, so I still don't get how you think it is americacentric. The fact that you haven't heard of it outside such a context doesn't mean it is, certainly not when you've been informed that it was relevant outside such a context. Taking care of nature is relevant across borders.
As I've already said, I'm not american, but it was relevant to me.
They are a problem everywhere. Their natural habitat is one that does not exist anymore. Wanting it to be true doesn't change the fact. It'd be like saying "dogs should just go back to their natural habitats" while speaking of pugs or mastiffs or whatever. We've spent 12.000 years breeding them and domesticating them, changing their physiology as we've likewise changed the ecology and biology of the world.
If you wanna be weird and pedantic go ahead, but in that case you can only have outdoor cats in this region of the arabian peninsula. Everywhere else they're non-native.
if they lived everywhere with humans for at least 2000+ years, from imperial China to imperial Rome and everything in between, i think you can say cats are ok
but ok, if you want to be pedantic, sure, they are not real cats if they don't come from the kat region somewhere in palestine 🙄
They very obviously haven't lived everywhere withoutnissue. There are countless examples of the introduction of cats leading to mass extinction of local fauna. It's also as if you're being willfully obtuse about what I am writing, and it is a bit frustrating. Why do you choose to only engage with parts of the text? We have changed the biosphere over the last 2000 years (and especially the last 200) to such an extent that cats no longer have a natural habitat. Do you not think that change extends elsewhere? The massive urban environments that dominate the globe now, as well as the massive amount of land dedicated to farmland means there are precious few areas wherein fauna can exist and procreate. Since these areas now are so limited, it is incredibly damaging when cats are in them to predate on the animals.
You can twist yourself into a pretzel by trying to find a myriad of justifications that do not actually confront the facts of the matter, or you could look at the facts of the matter and accept that outdoor cats are very damaging to the ecology.
You were the one arguing that they could be outside, as long as it was in the region where they came from. We're just following your logic.
I tell you cats kill an inordinate amount of local wildlife and you call me a lunatic colonizer anglo. I'm not even telling you what to do about it lol.
I'm sorry but cats kill an inordinate amount of wildlife, that's just how it is. There's done a bunch of studies on it. I'm loathe to quote Wikipedia, but go to the site I linked you and look thru the sources yourself then.
Cats kill a shitton of animals, and they do that wherever they are. That's not colonialism.
That was not a sentence I ever expected I'd write.
What part of cats being good at killing things is that hard for you to believe?
Americans desperately need everything to have a definite Right Way and Wrong Way, and the Right Way needs to involve significantly more money and/or effort (preferably being impossible), so that we can properly judge people who are Doing Things The Wrong Way as immoral. Of course that extends to cat care.
What part of cats being good at killing things is that hard for you to believe?
that's why we kept them around for millenias, and that's why - unlike chickens, dogs or cows - cats are just semi-domesticated. keeping cats inside is just cruel and bad practice
I have a cat. I have always had cats in my life. I love cats. I consider myself a "cat person" (who also loves dogs). But you really are being obtuse here. Even in places where cats are not a threat to literally entire species (as they are in much of the world), they can cause massive, irreversible destruction to the local wildlife. That is a fact.
The argument that it's cruel to keep cats indoors doesn't resonate with me either. Outdoor cats are far more likely to be seriously injured or killed by any number of things that are found only outside. From diseases to predators to sadistic humans, with the big obvious factor being cars. But a well-cared for indoor cat is a safe cat. I'm not going to look it up right now, but it's something like the average lifespan of an outdoor cat is only 3-4 years whereas indoor cats it's like 16-18. In my experience (and I've known a lot of cats, both indoor and outdoor) most that are raised indoors are perfectly happy to remain that way so long as they are given the things they need. That includes exercise and mental, emotional, and social stimulation. If you provide for them, there aren't many things they desire that they can get outdoor that can't also be given to them indoors. It is much more cruel to have a cat that you let outside but mostly ignore except to feed them, than it is to have an indoor-only cat that you make time for every day to play with, give affection, or otherwise engage. There are also plenty of compromises if you're a human that's privileged enough to be able to provide them, like outdoor enclosures.
Finally, this thing about calling the "cats should be kept indoors" argument an American position is just crude and wrong. The American way is more along the lines of "lol, I'm going to do what I want because I feel like it, I don't give a shit about all the evidence that what I want is harmful to others." In other words, "I don't care about the local bird, rodent, reptile, and native predator populations, I'm going to do what I want with MY cat" seems to be a hell of a lot more of an Americanism than @Egon@hexbear.net explaining to you why outdoor cats are a detriment to wildlife all over the world. When it's also taken into account that it's typically islands that have suffered the worst consequences of cats as an invasive species, islands that are also victims of US imperialism, saying that cats should be kept indoors is an American moral imposition is straight up offensive. At best, it's adding insult to injury.
Thank you for doing most of the heavy lifting trying to get through to them despite all that ableism and the obvious attempts to rattle you. It started to work on me, I was taking the last reply pretty personally at first (as was intended) before I saw it for what it was. It's too bad. At the very top of the thread I thought they might have been a decent comrade.
Yeah at first they just seemed like someone that didn't understand and wanted to, or someone that just had a different outlook. Sucks to see.
And yeah it's pretty taxing at times, I'm glad you could remove yourself from the situation mentally. take care
I don't treat my cat as a commodity at all and fuck you for implying I do. I give him the happiest most fulfilling life I can possibly afford, and it is good and happy. He is a joyful cat and I'm glad I was able to rescue him from the feral environment he was in as an "outdoor cat" where he was facing a harsh and short life before likely an early and painful death. [editing out some personal info here]. Don't fucking tell me about responsibility you smug cretin.
But you... what animals do you treat as commodities? You better be a vegan or any bullshit you're saying about others treating living, breathing creatures as a commodity you can fuck RIGHT off with your hypocrisy and moral superiority bullshit. (I am a vegan by the way because I'm not a hypocrite in my refusal to treat sentient life as a commodity).
Frankly, I find your use of leftist terminology to justify your selfish cruelty to not only your own pets but to the other life around them to be disgusting. If you can't or won't take responsibility for the harm you cause in the world for taking the lazy way of caring for a pet, for putting the sentient life that relies on you in danger, you are not fit to care for them at all.
Dawg I'm not an American. I don't think people desperately want cats to be good or bad or something. I think academics in the field have discovered an issue and are trying to handle it.
keeping cats inside is just cruel and bad practice.
You can have outdoor cats or you can have wildlife, but you can't have both.
You've taken this discussion from being about cats "natural habitats" to arguing that the world hasn't changed in 2000 years, to one of discussing wether there is anything wrong with cats at all, to one of you appropriating leftist language to make you not thinking cats kill animals be about me being a lunatic anglo colonizer (I resent that ableism by the way. I also resent the other stuff, but the ableism you should be above), to a moral discussion of how cats should be treated.
It's pretty frustrating, you're obviously just trying to move the goalposts until the subject of discussion is finally one where you will be unproblematically right. That's not a good way to have a discussion.
“Most cats are probably better off being able to go outside, but not all of them,” Bjarne Braastad tells sciencenorway.no. He is a retired professor in ethology, the study of animal behaviour, at the Norwegian University of Life Sciences (NMBU).
According to Braastad not all cats want to be outside. If the cat has only ever lived inside from when it was a tiny kitten, then it would be perfectly fine for it to live inside for the rest of its life also."
https://sciencenorway.no/animal-behaviour-animal-welfare-cats/is-it-cruel-to-keep-your-cat-indoors/2107167 so, yeah, there is a movement to keep cats indoor, but it's some pseudo scientific internet thing, that is mostly a thing in anglo-countries* (https://icatcare.org/indoor-only-or-outdoor-access/). While other countries see it as pure animal cruelty "It is animal cruelty not to let them do what they like."
Why do you choose to be obtuse? I'm not arguing from what is best for cats, that hasn't been the argument at any point - I haven't even said that cats should be kept indoors. You keep trying to shift the discussion, it's really shitty debatebro bullshit.
Like cats are just damaging to wildlife, that's a fact, but it's like you keep trying to deny it, but also you can't deny it so you just shift the argument.
It's uncomfortable sure, but such is life. Stop trying to make this into some weird moral discussion, or at least first accept the fundamental facts.
but it's like you keep trying to deny it, but also you can't deny it so you just shift the argument.
Notice the repeated hijacking of leftist rhetoric and terms in all that obvious goal post shifting and obnoxious debatebro shit. Like trying to tie your plain facts explanation to you somehow having an imperialist, capitalist, mindset. Then telling me I treat my cat "as a commodity" after I had gone on about how meaningful cats are to me. Almost as if they're just trying to push buttons.
This conversation isn't about discussing the issue in good faith, it's someone who clearly doesn't have anything to back up their position and can only do the classic lashing out in a pathetic attempt to provoke.
You're stating a unfactual fantasy.
Cats are domesticated pets that have lived with humans for thousands of years. At this point they aren't really native to any specific region anymore, and most certainly not in the population numbers they have now. They are natural predators with prey that has few defenses against them. Pretending there's anything "natural" about cats is silly.
Anyone who harbors and abets a KKKat while allowing it outside to engage in what can, by any reasonable standard, only be described as a campaign of stochastic terrorism against the indigenous bird population is a social chauvanist and any org that refuses to purge them is revisionist.
But yeah jokes aside there are reasonable concerns but it got blown out of proportion so now we like to joke about it as an example of splitting over trivial disagreements. Strays have a bigger impact than domestic ones anyway so spaying/neutering is what's really important
Y’all mfs are missing a very important point in the outside cat debate:
If you live up in the woods at the end of a dirt road you need a cat to keep the vermin out and a small mowed perimeter to keep critters from gettin in your crawlspaces.
I don't hate y'all, but some of the posts here can be indigestable. Some posts simply assume everyone is on the same page with something - which is likely true, since you've been a community for a long time.
Maybe I'll come back and edit this with an example at some point.
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I don't know why (VISA Silver Signature Rewards) is so funny, but it is
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visa silver legion confirmed?
lmao that's a classic
:che-smile: I forgot about that one lol
Lol I love this
That's fucking hilarious
Thats.... A surprising good example lol
Hey man, we know our shit stinks.
Yeah y'know what I actually refuse to use delivery apps and have convinced all my friends not too either, if you want takeout food go walk and get it yourself OR make sure you use fast food places that hire there own drivers and pay them a good wage.
Delivery apps are human slavery, plain and simple; most delivery drivers on those things make below min wage.
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I read a great article about this, they made the comparision between delivery 0 hour drivers and servants, and how all these apps do is dissociate the average consumer from what the relationship actually is, which is basically paying a servant to deliver you food.
(in a lot of cultures there are exemptions for minimum wage for servants and they are of a lower caste, see parasite the movie)
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You're witnessing us after we've gone through countless internal debates and purges, some of which will always be legendary. We had a problem with transphobes at the start, they're all gone. We had a really bizarre fight for about a week over whether or not cats should be allowed outside.
My favorite of ours was the weirdly intense debate over if it's ok to stack rocks next to or inside of a river.
There was also BMF, one of the strangest people to ever live. My personal favorite was @LiberalSocialist@hexbear.net, who was the most contradictory poster we had. You'd think LiberalSocialist was an elaborate Andy Kaufman level bit of someone pretending to be an annoying liberal, but I think it's always been unclear whether it was a gimmick or not.
Something that's crucial for the rock stacking: On the one side was a hydrologist with sources and calm and patient reasoning explaining how that, yes while climate change and ecoside is a result of this capitalist system and as such there is no individual solutions to it, in this instance your individual actions are actually very harmful, so please don't stack rocks. It's not just a tiny thing, it's actually very harmful, so please don't stack rocks.
On the other side was a mix of users going either "yeah, but I just feel like it isn't an issue" and users going "fuck you I'm gonna stack rocks anyway" as if rock-stacking was their livelyhood and users trying to rules-lawyer the thing like "what if it isn't a running stream? What if I'm in a desert? What if it's volcanic rocks?" The reaction was wildly outsized, but apparently hexbear has a large rock-stacking userbase.
Edit: found the original thread https://hexbear.net/post/249555?scrollToComments=false
Critical stage "let people enjoy things" ideology, right there, where it's so spiteful against even the slightest suggestion of behavior improvement that rock stacking becomes a weird contrarian mandate to stick it to the scolds.
Ok, but what about this one beach in Bretagne, France, where people have been stacking rocks for years and there are actually some pretty impressive stacks? (/s, tho there actually is a place like that and I now have conflicted feelings about it)
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More like a userbase of nerds who never leave their houses since it's impossible to go camping and not be hit with signs like these. That whole stupid struggle session was a bunch of nerds who never went camping and seeing decades-old signs about how you're not supposed to disturb the environment like picking up stream rocks trying to argue that not disturbing the environment like picking up stream rocks is somehow ultraleftism.
I forgot how they started arguing against leave no trace as well lol. It was honestly infuriating.
I remember someone going "I just don't think it matters if I mess up a flower bloom or stack some rocks" and then they were told that it did matter and how it mattered and they just went "yeah I just don't think that makes sense."
Lot of "well but what if I wanna stack rocks?" And "what if I'm terminally depressed and stacking rocks is my only outlet?"
It was a real low point for the site
I remember reading that thread when it happened, and thinking how ridiculous that all was. Like, it was something I’d never really thought much about but I was just like oh ok, that makes sense, I’ll be sure to remember not to fuck around with rocks. The responses were baffling. Do you have the link so I could revisit it?
Took some searching @CoolerOpposide@hexbear.net was the hydrologist. The thread, for your viewing pleasure.
Death to them!
Thank you!
Eh. This still remains clearly a product of Ameri-centrism in my mind: An America-only issue was being touted as a global problem everyone should be aware of, so everybody else in the world who has never seen or even imagined this weird shit will regard it as so uncommon as to not matter. And no, I don't think one side was being particularly more 'calm and patient' than the other.
What are you talking about? The thing was a user that shared how a specific practice was bad. The practice itself is not one tied to a specific region, nor where any of the disagreements rooted in specific regions or culture tied to specific regions. How is "stacking rocks" American? Are other people's incapable of stacking rocks? Do they not have water streams?
How is "stacking rocks is very bad for the streams" an American issue? People everywhere do it. It isn't even an outspread thing. The user just posted about it to discourage others. It was so minor. I'm not even american myself, and I (thankfully) dont live in the us. It was still relevant to me.
I'm also kinda sick of the "it's America centric" what if it was? A large part of the userbase is american? Are they not allowed to discuss things relevant to America?
I have literally never heard of it happening anywhere else in the world. I never said American things couldn't be talked about, but talking about it like it's a ubiquitous practice, and then getting angry at people who don't understand why it's an issue, is just miscommunication, not a big disagreement. And miscommunications caused by America-centrism is a very tiring affair on the internet. Just prepend the post with "Hey Americans:" and there wouldn't have been any real discussion.
I have no idea how you could possibly have gotten that from what I wrote.
At no point did I mention America, yet it's somehow American because you haven't heard of it?
At no point did I say it was ubiquitous (in fact I've just said it wasn't).
At no point was the issue one of something widespread being bad.
At no point did I write that they talked about it like it's a common thing.
You are reading what you want, rather than what the text says.
A user calmy and patiently explained why and how stacking rocks near waterstreams was bad. This made other users irrationally angry.
The issue was never one of miscommunication, as I have written already. The whole thing was communicated clearly. Users that understood what the practice was, and understood the reasoning for it being bad, were angry that they were being told it was bad and they shouldn't do it.
I'm really struggling to see how you could have gotten any of this from what I wrote. Did you learn to read in that weird way where you just memorized the shape of words, rather than the phonics of letters?
Again, it has nothing to do with America at all.
I was literally in that struggle thread (different account) - I wasn't claiming you said certain things, I was commenting on what that thread was. Unless we're talking about entirely different threads about the same thing.
I was also in that thread at the time.
I assumed you were claiming I said these things, as I'd already once asked how you thought it was an American thing, and since you were using "you" phrases. I guess that's the problem with English where the plural and the personal is the same.
It was at no point an american thing specifically, so I still don't get how you think it is americacentric. The fact that you haven't heard of it outside such a context doesn't mean it is, certainly not when you've been informed that it was relevant outside such a context. Taking care of nature is relevant across borders.
As I've already said, I'm not american, but it was relevant to me.
Here's the original thread, determine for yourself if you want
We can always bring back "are bidets bourgeois?"
You do and you can bet your dirty, disgusting arsehole we're defederating too.
Remember the "are washing machines bourgeois decadence" swiftly followed by the "are washing machines racist" struggle sessions?
I love this site.
the washing machine has changed the world more than the internet
Washing machines aren't, but drying machines are.
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WASH YOUR DAMN ASS
i missed the beginning of the 'batteries and water and eels' thing and i still don't understand what that was about
At one point google apparently suggested a good way to dispose of your used car batteries was to dump them in the ocean
ohhhh lol thank you! now i finally know
It's always a good and fun activity to dispose of car batteries in the ocean.
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ofc cat should be allowed outside what the hell 🤔
There are ecological problems. Killing birds and things. They've caused several species-extinctions in Australia iirc, where they are not native.
ok, they are problem in Australia I give you that. but where they existed and lived with humans since forever?
it's not like we have to adopt stupid Anglo internet paranoias just bcs some some aussie fucked up. fuck anglos anyway
You mean neolithic Egypt? Those times are long gone. Cats have no natural habitat anymore.
so besides Africa, Eurasia, and America, yes, they are a problem in antartica and oceania. got it
They are a problem everywhere. Their natural habitat is one that does not exist anymore. Wanting it to be true doesn't change the fact. It'd be like saying "dogs should just go back to their natural habitats" while speaking of pugs or mastiffs or whatever. We've spent 12.000 years breeding them and domesticating them, changing their physiology as we've likewise changed the ecology and biology of the world.
If you wanna be weird and pedantic go ahead, but in that case you can only have outdoor cats in this region of the arabian peninsula. Everywhere else they're non-native.
if they lived everywhere with humans for at least 2000+ years, from imperial China to imperial Rome and everything in between, i think you can say cats are ok
but ok, if you want to be pedantic, sure, they are not real cats if they don't come from the kat region somewhere in palestine 🙄
They very obviously haven't lived everywhere withoutnissue. There are countless examples of the introduction of cats leading to mass extinction of local fauna. It's also as if you're being willfully obtuse about what I am writing, and it is a bit frustrating. Why do you choose to only engage with parts of the text? We have changed the biosphere over the last 2000 years (and especially the last 200) to such an extent that cats no longer have a natural habitat. Do you not think that change extends elsewhere? The massive urban environments that dominate the globe now, as well as the massive amount of land dedicated to farmland means there are precious few areas wherein fauna can exist and procreate. Since these areas now are so limited, it is incredibly damaging when cats are in them to predate on the animals.
You can twist yourself into a pretzel by trying to find a myriad of justifications that do not actually confront the facts of the matter, or you could look at the facts of the matter and accept that outdoor cats are very damaging to the ecology.
You were the one arguing that they could be outside, as long as it was in the region where they came from. We're just following your logic.
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I tell you cats kill an inordinate amount of local wildlife and you call me a lunatic colonizer anglo. I'm not even telling you what to do about it lol.
I'm sorry but cats kill an inordinate amount of wildlife, that's just how it is. There's done a bunch of studies on it. I'm loathe to quote Wikipedia, but go to the site I linked you and look thru the sources yourself then.
Cats kill a shitton of animals, and they do that wherever they are. That's not colonialism.
That was not a sentence I ever expected I'd write.
What part of cats being good at killing things is that hard for you to believe?
Edit: also fuck off with your ableism.
Americans desperately need everything to have a definite Right Way and Wrong Way, and the Right Way needs to involve significantly more money and/or effort (preferably being impossible), so that we can properly judge people who are Doing Things The Wrong Way as immoral. Of course that extends to cat care.
that's why we kept them around for millenias, and that's why - unlike chickens, dogs or cows - cats are just semi-domesticated. keeping cats inside is just cruel and bad practice
I have a cat. I have always had cats in my life. I love cats. I consider myself a "cat person" (who also loves dogs). But you really are being obtuse here. Even in places where cats are not a threat to literally entire species (as they are in much of the world), they can cause massive, irreversible destruction to the local wildlife. That is a fact.
The argument that it's cruel to keep cats indoors doesn't resonate with me either. Outdoor cats are far more likely to be seriously injured or killed by any number of things that are found only outside. From diseases to predators to sadistic humans, with the big obvious factor being cars. But a well-cared for indoor cat is a safe cat. I'm not going to look it up right now, but it's something like the average lifespan of an outdoor cat is only 3-4 years whereas indoor cats it's like 16-18. In my experience (and I've known a lot of cats, both indoor and outdoor) most that are raised indoors are perfectly happy to remain that way so long as they are given the things they need. That includes exercise and mental, emotional, and social stimulation. If you provide for them, there aren't many things they desire that they can get outdoor that can't also be given to them indoors. It is much more cruel to have a cat that you let outside but mostly ignore except to feed them, than it is to have an indoor-only cat that you make time for every day to play with, give affection, or otherwise engage. There are also plenty of compromises if you're a human that's privileged enough to be able to provide them, like outdoor enclosures.
Finally, this thing about calling the "cats should be kept indoors" argument an American position is just crude and wrong. The American way is more along the lines of "lol, I'm going to do what I want because I feel like it, I don't give a shit about all the evidence that what I want is harmful to others." In other words, "I don't care about the local bird, rodent, reptile, and native predator populations, I'm going to do what I want with MY cat" seems to be a hell of a lot more of an Americanism than @Egon@hexbear.net explaining to you why outdoor cats are a detriment to wildlife all over the world. When it's also taken into account that it's typically islands that have suffered the worst consequences of cats as an invasive species, islands that are also victims of US imperialism, saying that cats should be kept indoors is an American moral imposition is straight up offensive. At best, it's adding insult to injury.
Thank you for chiming in. It's been pretty frustrating talking to this debatebro on my own. The ableism of being called a lunatic is pretty shitty
Thank you for doing most of the heavy lifting trying to get through to them despite all that ableism and the obvious attempts to rattle you. It started to work on me, I was taking the last reply pretty personally at first (as was intended) before I saw it for what it was. It's too bad. At the very top of the thread I thought they might have been a decent comrade.
Yeah at first they just seemed like someone that didn't understand and wanted to, or someone that just had a different outlook. Sucks to see.
And yeah it's pretty taxing at times, I'm glad you could remove yourself from the situation mentally. take care
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I don't treat my cat as a commodity at all and fuck you for implying I do. I give him the happiest most fulfilling life I can possibly afford, and it is good and happy. He is a joyful cat and I'm glad I was able to rescue him from the feral environment he was in as an "outdoor cat" where he was facing a harsh and short life before likely an early and painful death. [editing out some personal info here]. Don't fucking tell me about responsibility you smug cretin.
But you... what animals do you treat as commodities? You better be a vegan or any bullshit you're saying about others treating living, breathing creatures as a commodity you can fuck RIGHT off with your hypocrisy and moral superiority bullshit. (I am a vegan by the way because I'm not a hypocrite in my refusal to treat sentient life as a commodity).
Frankly, I find your use of leftist terminology to justify your selfish cruelty to not only your own pets but to the other life around them to be disgusting. If you can't or won't take responsibility for the harm you cause in the world for taking the lazy way of caring for a pet, for putting the sentient life that relies on you in danger, you are not fit to care for them at all.
Dawg I'm not an American. I don't think people desperately want cats to be good or bad or something. I think academics in the field have discovered an issue and are trying to handle it.
You can have outdoor cats or you can have wildlife, but you can't have both.
You've taken this discussion from being about cats "natural habitats" to arguing that the world hasn't changed in 2000 years, to one of discussing wether there is anything wrong with cats at all, to one of you appropriating leftist language to make you not thinking cats kill animals be about me being a lunatic anglo colonizer (I resent that ableism by the way. I also resent the other stuff, but the ableism you should be above), to a moral discussion of how cats should be treated.
It's pretty frustrating, you're obviously just trying to move the goalposts until the subject of discussion is finally one where you will be unproblematically right. That's not a good way to have a discussion.
“Most cats are probably better off being able to go outside, but not all of them,” Bjarne Braastad tells sciencenorway.no. He is a retired professor in ethology, the study of animal behaviour, at the Norwegian University of Life Sciences (NMBU).
According to Braastad not all cats want to be outside. If the cat has only ever lived inside from when it was a tiny kitten, then it would be perfectly fine for it to live inside for the rest of its life also."
https://sciencenorway.no/animal-behaviour-animal-welfare-cats/is-it-cruel-to-keep-your-cat-indoors/2107167 so, yeah, there is a movement to keep cats indoor, but it's some pseudo scientific internet thing, that is mostly a thing in anglo-countries* (https://icatcare.org/indoor-only-or-outdoor-access/). While other countries see it as pure animal cruelty "It is animal cruelty not to let them do what they like."
Why do you choose to be obtuse? I'm not arguing from what is best for cats, that hasn't been the argument at any point - I haven't even said that cats should be kept indoors. You keep trying to shift the discussion, it's really shitty debatebro bullshit.
Like cats are just damaging to wildlife, that's a fact, but it's like you keep trying to deny it, but also you can't deny it so you just shift the argument.
It's uncomfortable sure, but such is life. Stop trying to make this into some weird moral discussion, or at least first accept the fundamental facts.
Notice the repeated hijacking of leftist rhetoric and terms in all that obvious goal post shifting and obnoxious debatebro shit. Like trying to tie your plain facts explanation to you somehow having an imperialist, capitalist, mindset. Then telling me I treat my cat "as a commodity" after I had gone on about how meaningful cats are to me. Almost as if they're just trying to push buttons.
This conversation isn't about discussing the issue in good faith, it's someone who clearly doesn't have anything to back up their position and can only do the classic lashing out in a pathetic attempt to provoke.
Yeah it sucks. The mods used to crack down on that debatebro type thing. It did wonders for site culture, kinda hope they do again
You can love cats being outside or you can love wildlife but you can't love both.
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cat outside like it has always been: voice of reason
Hey why are we in a mass extinction event where'd that come from.
Cats?
You're stating a unfactual fantasy.
Cats are domesticated pets that have lived with humans for thousands of years. At this point they aren't really native to any specific region anymore, and most certainly not in the population numbers they have now. They are natural predators with prey that has few defenses against them. Pretending there's anything "natural" about cats is silly.
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"I've never heard of it before, therefore it cannot be true" is a wild statement to just throw out there.
Also fuck off with your bullshit ableism.
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How do you acquire new information then?
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Anyone who harbors and abets a KKKat while allowing it outside to engage in what can, by any reasonable standard, only be described as a campaign of stochastic terrorism against the indigenous bird population is a social chauvanist and any org that refuses to purge them is revisionist.
Read Lenin.
cats are the hungry purrrletariat
I take it back, instead of Lenin, read Settlers: the Mythology of the Feline Proletariat
ahaha reveals the author’s bias against working-class unity and plays into the hands of the ruling class
edit: let's also remember that 👏 all 👏 dogs 👏 are 👏 fascists 👏
Posting the man responsible for the massacre of countless innocent sparrows while defending outdoor cats is telling.
Yet even then, as you can see, all of those cats are clearly indoor cats. Outdoor cats were too extreme even for Mao.
he was feral enough against landlords, and what he really cared about was freedom
But yeah jokes aside there are reasonable concerns but it got blown out of proportion so now we like to joke about it as an example of splitting over trivial disagreements. Strays have a bigger impact than domestic ones anyway so spaying/neutering is what's really important
Kkkat has got me rolling
😠
On a harness or in an enclosed space that theybwon't escape, sure.
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Y’all mfs are missing a very important point in the outside cat debate:
If you live up in the woods at the end of a dirt road you need a cat to keep the vermin out and a small mowed perimeter to keep critters from gettin in your crawlspaces.
Or: it’s okay when I do it.
More like a small meowed perimeter
I hear 30-50 feral hogs will also do.
God damn I would love to see your reaction to some of the classic BMF posts lol
Death to America
With federation the prevalence of PMC radlib Karens has skyrocketed