I get the impression that 95% of the people here are some flavour of ML.

      • skeletorsass [she/her]
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        4 years ago

        I can't find any actually credible source on this and Siberian Times is not one.

        • Civility [none/use name]
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          4 years ago

          The DNA test or the pregnancies?

          Cos there were internal soviet investigations confirming the latter.

          • skeletorsass [she/her]
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            4 years ago

            Both of these things? I can only find tabloids and shit pop history books when I look for it.

            • Civility [none/use name]
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              4 years ago

              So, by "Shit Pop History Books" I'm assuming you're referring to Montefiorre's Young Stalin, where the pregnancy claim is first validated by previously sealed soviet records. The claims are well documented in existing before hand but until those records were unsealed they seem to have been largely dismissed as propaganda.

              While Montefiorre is a pop historian and Young Stalin wasn't peer reviewed, book reviews of it were, and they seem to accept Montefiorre's claims and validate that he did have access to those sources. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/slavic-review/article/young-stalin-by-simon-sebag-montefiore-new-york-alfred-a-knopf-2007-xxxii-460-pp-notes-bibliography-index-illustrations-photographs-maps-3000-hard-bound-1695-paper/3EB95BEB9D3367869D5377B5861C5817

              Further I can't find anyone offering any pushback, which the record keepers probably would. If you really doubt it I suppose you'd have to go to Georgia yourself. Further, I can't find anyone offering pushback to the Siberian Times' claims of the DNA tests, which I'd expect, given the international and republishing of those articles Stalin's surviving grandson the articles claim provided the DNA would.

              For all of this to be a complete fabrication there would have to be a conspiracy on the part of the record keepers, Stalin's grandson, the Siberian Times, a highly successful British pop historian, and Yury Davydov and his family or the DNA clinic. For such a large, diverse and unlikely conspiracy to have been assembled and apparently executed without a single leak or hitch you'd expect a much larger payoff than a single round of the news cycle in April 2016 which didn't coincide with any larger wave of anti-Soviet propaganda.

              Given, if not an abundance, then as much evidence as can reasonably expected (where else would a DNA test be first reported except in national news? Why wouldn't new details about Stalin's personal life surface in soviet records about Stalin's personal life unsealed for the first time?), and no falsification of or even pushback against of this evidence by parties who have both the ability and motive to I don't believe there's really grounds to doubt the claims.

              • skeletorsass [she/her]
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                4 years ago

                I do not see any reference to that claim specifically, and cannot find any real academic reference to it anywhere, despite it being of interest if it were verifiable.

                I also do not see how the conspiracy has to be so large? I see no credible source on the DNA test, Stalin's grandson,, etc. Only tabloids, and no credible international republishing. It also does not appear to be a notably widely spread story, certainly not enough to warrant attention for pushback.

                • Civility [none/use name]
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                  4 years ago

                  What, to you is a "credible source"?

                  This daily mail article for instance: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-454291/Stalin-lover-aged-13.html

                  Is by Montefiorre, the guy who published the book Young Stalin. reviewed in peer reviewed journals, where the sourcing and research he did for the Young Stalin is praised.

                  • skeletorsass [she/her]
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                    4 years ago

                    Not tabloids or news websites well known for publishing falsehoods. Some academic backing for Montefiorre's claim since 13 years it has been published.

                    Not a fucking daily mail article.

                    • Civility [none/use name]
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                      4 years ago

                      Simon Montefiorre is heavily cited and published in peer review journals. Young Stalin is a work of pop history but he's a serious historian.

                      Furthermore, reviews of Young Stalin are published in peer reviewed journals praising the books research and sourcing, and not pushing back against any of the claims.

                      There's noone saying this is fabricated, and many people involved who, if it was fabricated, have both the motive (barring a grand conspiracy) and the ability to utterly destroy this story's credibility. They haven't.

                      Why in your conspiracy, would Stalin's grandson who the articles claim provided the DNA to be tested go along with the lie?

                      Assuming he's not in on it, why would the DNA clinic?

                      Why would Montefiore, a prestigious academic and pop historian gamble his reputation and credibilty on a fabrication which gained him so little?

                      Why would Yury Davydov and his family and friends in Novokuznetsk lie?

                      Why would the keepers of the records Montefiorre was given access to?

                      More to the point, why would they all get together and decide to lie about the same thing for so little benefit to any of them?

                      If there was a grand conspiracy to fabricate this why is so little use being made of the story?

                      You're fabricating a grand conspiracy where no evidence or even trace of one exists because you don't want to accept that Stalin probably raped a 13 year old.

                      • skeletorsass [she/her]
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                        4 years ago

                        Are you really trying to claim that a journal's review of a pop history book, which doesn't address the claim, is the same as the claim itself being peer reviewed? That is not how peer review works.

                        I have seen no evidence beyond low-traction articles in tabloids that Stalin's grandson, a DNA clinic, etc are making any such claim.

                        Where is any academic discussion of this at all? Why if it is so true is it limited in reach to right-wing press and pop history?

                        None of this, or anything regarding Stalin's character has anything to do with the political validity of Marxism-Leninism, any more than (also unverified) claims about Makhno's treatment of women does upon anarchism.

                        • Civility [none/use name]
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                          4 years ago

                          Look, I don't really have a stake in convincing a stranger on the internet about this.

                          You're claiming, on no basis, something with a lot of evidence for it, is false.

                          Montefiorre's peers, the keepers of the records he examined, and Stalin's family haven't pushed back against Montefiorre's claims.

                          Stalin's grandson hasn't pushed back against claims he provided DNA to the clinic, nor have the people who the internationally circulated news articles claim to be the descendants of the woman Stalin raped, nor have the rest of Stalin's family.

                          Information often takes a while to to percolate through academic circles, especially information as obscure as the sordid details of Stalin's youth. As a qualified historian myself I hope you'll believe me when I say that among most schools of academic historians (although I can't speak specifically for historians of the Soviet Union) biographical histories of "Great Men" have been out of fashion for a long time. As to why the right or western capital in general might not want to draw attention to powerful pedophiles, I'll leave that up to you to figure out.

                          I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.