An album to outline a few comments I have received within the past 3 days:
(content warning: extremely toxic and sour comments, genocide denial)
https://imgur.com/a/d63ohQM
(yes, I cherry picked the ones that are either rude or in denial of genocide. I
had to, or else the list would have gotten too long. If you want to see the
entirety of their replies, you should check out my comment history and click on
each link to see their replies.)
TL;DR: Hexbears deny the genocide against Uyghurs in China. They laugh at and dismiss the idea that China is a dictatorship. Having those opinions is fine, but they personally insult the people with whom they don't agree using annoying emojis and terms like troll, shit, shithead, Nazi apologist, colonial comprador, freak, rabid imperialist westerners, condescending dickbag, disingenuous idiot, unimaginative impotent weasel, losers, etc. They say that other people's claims are rooted in dishonest bullshit. One of them even said, "nothing you say has any value, and you deserve no regard." I would say about 33% of them are overly pugnacious and feed on the misery of others. Federating with them brings us more trouble than benefits. The sheer number of other instances that chose to block them is more than enough to prove this.
As the recent discussion about Hexbear unfold and with the megathread locked, I figured I should make a post detailing my experience I've had recently with Hexbears and why I believe that defederation from them is better for lemm.ee.
Denial of the persecution of Uyghurs in China
Many Hexbears (see the linked album for screenshots of their comments) reject the idea that there is such an atrocity going on in their ideal country (China). They describe such a claim as preposterous. They say that me "lying about the genocide" is the holocaust denial I'm being accused of. Their excuses are basically always one of the following:
- Andrian Zenz, a Nazi apologist, claimed that there is. He is a nazi apologist thus his claims must be false. Therefore there is no genocide in Xinjiang. (More on this later.)
- You can't provide any proof so there must be no genocide. (I can understand not accepting things without proof. I do that often, too. But they are simply not even open to the idea that there might be such a thing happening.)
- A UN fact finding mission once claimed that there is no such thing happening in Xinjiang. Therefore the persecution must be fabricated.
One person admitted that there are vocational schools (more commonly known as re-education camps) but that their purpose are to lift people out of poverty. They also claimed that the large number of women who use IUDs are due to them becoming more educated and they voluntarily to implant such devices to not be used as slaves by men. Totally not forced by the government. Another user even attacked my claims by saying that my claims are based on "racism."
I believe that their idea that the UN does not support the claims of the oppression in Xinjiang is outdated. I strongly recommend Hexbears read this report (at least the overall assessment on page 43) by The UN human rights office (OHCHR) addressing the human rights concerns in Xinjiang from 2022-08-31: https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/2022-08-31/22-08-31-final-assesment.pdf. A quote from its overall assessment, page 43: (emphasis mine)
Serious human rights violations have been committed in XUAR [Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region] in the context of the Government’s application of counter-terrorism and counter-“extremism” strategies. The implementation of these strategies, and associated policies in XUAR has led to interlocking patterns of severe and undue restrictions on a wide range of human rights. These patterns of restrictions are characterized by a discriminatory component, as the underlying acts often directly or indirectly affect Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim communities.
I am looking forward to hearing what explanations Hexbears will come up with to prove that this report by the UN, the UN that you once cited, is fabricated and that China is treating its Uyghurs well.
Enough debate about whether the persecution is true. I don't want this post about Hexbear to devolve into an argument about whether the Uyghurs in China are being oppressed.
Ignorance of the fact that China is a dictatorship
Several Hexbears have attacked me for calling China a dictatorship. They label China democratic and willing to listen to the people's voices. They do lots of PR for China. How do they even believe that there is any degree of democracy in a country that regular silences topics on its social network? I have, really, nothing against communism, but I do have a lot against dictatorships, and China is a prime example of a dictatorship. They control what their citizens can see on the Internet, monitor every communication happening through their messaging apps, and often detains, without trial, dissidents who dare to call out the government for its wrongdoings. It's literally 1984. (I actually have read that book, and I am using this phrase in a non-ironic manner.) Yet Hexbears are completely unwilling to accept this fact solely because China happens to fit into the socialist ideal that Hexbears covet.
Ad hominem attacks
Another thing people often dislike about Hexbears is that they often resort to ad hominem attacks when they can't win an argument. Just in the last 3 days, I have heard the following terms thrown at me: troll, shit, shithead, baby brain, Nazi apologist, colonial comprador, freak, nerd, rabid imperialist westerners, condescending dickbag, disingenuous idiot, and unimaginative impotent weasel. They love calling people names.
In addition, one user repeatedly claim that my comments are made "deliberately to start shit." Another said that "my opinions does not deserve to be heard" in response to me saying that my reason for leaving so many comments is just to voice my opinions. One even said, "Nothing you say has any value, and you deserve no regard."
At least 20% of Hexbears are immediately hostile and condescending toward people of different opinions. This behavior is unacceptable, and I'm pretty sure that it breaks almost every Lemmy instance rules ever, as well as Hexbear's Code of Conduct: (emphasis mine)
We will ban you if you insult, demean or harass anyone. That is not welcome behavior.
(I am also certain that this is a violation of two lemm.ee's rules: no abusive language and no bigotry. Just in case you didn't know (because I didn't know either), the definition of "bigot" is "one who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ." (emphasis mine))
Nevertheless, I have yet to see mods removing those insults, much less banning anyone. I have reported some of the provocative comments, yet none of them seems to have been removed. It seems like the mods does not really care whether anyone outside Hexbear or those whose ideologies they don't agree with is insulted. I guess that anyone only includes Hexbears. I also invite people to view my comment history to judge whether what I said deserved mistreatment like this. I would say no, but don't take my word for it. Please, do check it out yourself.
To quote our admin @sunaurus@lemm.ee:
Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.
I don't think that the bigoted content on Hexbear are being removed quickly enough, if at all.
False Nazi apologist labeling
In my recent exchanges with Hexbears, I have also been called a Nazi apologist numerous times. This is a really serious allegation, so serious that I felt the need to give it a section of itself in this post. For what I have been called a Nazi apologist? A quote from one of my comments (note that it was not edited):
[Zenz] is a liar and Nazi sympathiser
I just clicked that link and, wow, that tweet was quite stupid. He should not have said that. What the Nazis did was unexcusable. However, please keep this in mind - that being a Nazi sympathizer does not automatically invalidate one's opinions on other topics.
Basically, what happened was that the post I linked to for the purpose of backing up my claim that there were genocide happening in Xinjiang, happened to heavily cite Andrian Zenz. At the time of writing that comment, I did not know that Zenz was a Nazi sympathizer. After a few hours, some Hexbears pointed it out, and I sent the comment quoted above as my reply. I think I have made it pretty clear that while I condemn Zenz fatuous remarks on Nazis, I still believe that his observations about Xinjiang are not necessarily incorrect. However, numerous Hexbears gripped on to this point and repeatedly attacked and slandered me for defending Nazi apologia or outright claiming that I am a Nazi apologist.
I did not defend Nazi apologia or Nazi apologists. All I did was defend the claim that there is genocide going on in Xinjiang. Yet Hexbears seemed to very much swallowed the disinformation that their fellow comrades were spreading.
"Nazi apologist" is a really serious accusation and should not have been used so rashily by those Hexbears. The fact that they even had the audacity to claim such a thing before reading my original comment is another sign that Hexbears are generally too eager to argue. I strongly condemn their behavior and facetious remarks.
If this doesn't sufficiently prove that a sizable portion of Hexbear is aggressively toxic, I don't know what will. Therefore, I am in full support of defederation from Hexbears. (I was once actually against this (just 10 days ago), but guess what changed my mind?) The admins of Hexbear have shown little to no interest in removing hate speech on their platform. (I believe that they removed the hate speech targeting our admin mostly for show.) Sure, there are some thoughtful users there, but I am afraid that they will have to ask their admins to solve the problem at hand—toxicity toward others. When the admins one day succeed in putting a stop to the burning hate speech there or when Lemmy devs add the feature for blocking entire instances a feature to users (whichever comes first), maybe we can then consider refederation.
If anyone actually read through the entirety of my long ass post, thank you.
Response to the Hexbear Federation Megathread
To our dear admin Sunaurus,
First, I want to thank you for your dedication and effort you have spent on this instance. I appreciate how much you have contributed to the community without expecting much in return.
I have read through the entire post titled Hexbear Federation Megathread (not including the comments obviously). I understand that you want to keep a freer federation policy and do not want to defederate from anyone easily. However, I still believe that the benefits of federating with them does not outweigh the hate speech they bring.
If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content.
I would argue that the percentage of bigoted posts on Hexbear is significantly larger than any Lemmy instance, including lemmygrad.ml. Take these two instances as a comparison. They share pretty much the same ideology, but people on lemmygrad.ml are generally more kind to other people. Let's look at an example. @johndoe@lemm.ee leaves a comment "oh no they are increasing the tax rate? what are they even using my money for?" on some post. The typical lemmygrad.ml response would detail why they are increasing tax rates. The typical hexbear.net response, though, would sharply criticize @johndoe@lemm.ee's comment and use needless, rude questions to point out that of course the government needs more tax.
This is also why defederation from Hexbear would not "result in the flattening of opinions" on news communities, as some have suggested. We still have lemmygrad.ml.
As you too have seen, there were 1906 comments on that megathread before you locked it and deleted some (36) comments. By viewing the same thread on another instance that has defederated from Hexbear, we can know that there are approximately 1400 of those being from Hexbear. Don't you think that this is a bit ridiculous? That a post on lemm.ee has more comments from another instance? You probably locked the thread for the same reason.
As to the Kremlin propaganda, I agree with your concerns about it. In a way, this is just like me worrying about the Chinese propaganda that China is very democratic, so I can fully understand your feelings. They just keep insisting that those countries are fine because they are socialist. If this isn't bigotry, what is?
However you decide to approach this sticky problem with Hexbears, I want you to know that I am very appreciative of your work.
Edit 1: at time of writing a user also posted the following remarks:
Edit 2: some people don't seem to know what "megathread" I was referring to. Here is a link: https://lemm.ee/post/4543536
Edit 3: as I kind of have expected, Hexbear users are casually ignoring the proof they have been asking for the whole time of the persecution toward Uyghurs in Xinjiang. In case anyone missed it in the post, here it is again: https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/countries/2022-08-31/22-08-31-final-assesment.pdf.
Edit 4: some Hexbears noticed my proof. And now they are attacking the fact that I am calling it "genocide" but the report did not. You are talking as if you always knew that there were persecution against them in the first place but you chose to turn a blind eye to it.
Edit 5: In reply to Edit 4, I just realized that the group of people who acknowledged the proof I provided did not refute my claims of the persecution in Xinjiang in the first place. Sorry.
Edit 6: At 2023-08-28 14:20 (UTC) an admin decided to lock this post due to the increasing number of reports. In general I am glad about this because this spares me from the hundreds of replies that I probably will get in my inbox tomorrow morning if it were not locked.
Edit 7: As @impiri@lemm.ee pointed out, there was an unpaired parenthesis in my post. I just fixed it. Looking back at that sentence reminds me of Lisp code.
Edit 8: To anyone who didn't know what Hexbear: if you judge them to be not that toxic after reading the comments on this post, please keep in mind that the admins of lemm.ee have removed some of them.
Edit 9: Fixed a grammar error.
However, please keep this in mind - that being a Nazi sympathizer does not automatically invalidate one's opinions on other topics.
If you think that Nazis are worth sympathy, then you've demonstrated that your decision-making ability is warped enough that it does invalidate your other opinions.
His argument itself is in bad faith. "The Chinese are Nazis because a Nazi sympathiser said so". No shit he's getting shat on.
To be fair, you guys argue in bad faith as well right now. The statement is factually correct. A person with one wrong belief can still be correct about something else. Otherwise by your logic all vegetarians are nazis as well because Hitler didn’t eat meat either.
nazi sympathizers don't get good faith because they're excusing people who want to wipe many of us from the face of the earth. I don't care about how right their opinions are - they're my enemies.
but he’s not excusing the nazi apologist, he just accidentally quoted them on an unrelated topic and then distanced himself upon learning they were an apologist.
saying we should take a nazi seriously on their point that the asiastics are devilish is nazi apologia - Zenz isn't merely an apologist, he's straight up a christofascist.
I think I have made it pretty clear that while I condemn Zenz fatuous remarks on Nazis, I still believe that his observations about Xinjiang are not necessarily incorrect.
That is not distancing themselves from the Nazi sympathizer. They're listening to all of the propaganda the Nazi sympathizer puts out, rejecting the parts that don't support their specific narrative, and keeping the rest.
"Being a Nazi means your testimony is not worth hearing outside of a courtroom" =/= "If you believe anything a Nazi also happened to believe, that means you are a Nazi"
You invoke logic, but the formal relation is completely different.
You collected over 40 screenshots of people on a forum you don't like and made a huge post of multiple paragraphs with citations.
I want to say this in the most polite way possible. This isn't healthy at all. If you're not having a good time on a forum, just don't talk to people who you vehemently disagree with. Or just go outside. You shouldn't be obsessing over internet arguments for days or weeks.
You're just going to have live with the fact some people disagree with you and you're not able to change everyone's mind.
Thank you. You are among one of the nobler Hexbears. I will take your advice.
A good rule of thumb is this: If you spend more than like 10 to 15 minutes writing a forum post, especially if you're trying to win an argument, try to ask yourself what you're doing with your time. Try to see if you can be doing something better for yourself.
You came into a place with people way more knowledgeable than you on worldwide politics and history, kept saying "No you!" till people got rightfully fed up with your willful ignorance in the presence of people earnestly trying to educate you and shat up the place. So yes, of course it devolved into people mocking you, just like they probably will for making this thread whining about the interaction that you deliberately sought out by going into that space and spouting off some of the most common liberal misinformation on the internet, then closing your eyes to the people trying to correct you.
For anyone interested, this is what this person is leaving out
Genocide in China: "Well sure there's no actual evidence but you need to take seriously the idea that it could be happening anyway. This nazi guy has a lot of interesting things to say and I don't think we should hold rabid white supremacy against a guy when he's telling you about how evil the Asiatics are."
The idea that you're a nazi apologist can be gleaned just from a close reading of you complaining about being called a nazi apologist.
Buddy. You need to learn how to take an L in an argument without turning it into your whole personality.
OP, politics aside, it seems like you have a genuinely unhealthy obsession with having these arguments. If you don't feel you're getting any meaningful discussion or engagement out of those conversations, then stop.
Thanks. I will stop. In fact I planned for my post to be the final few hours I dedicate to those people.
Hexbears deny the genocide against Uyghurs in China
Denial of the persecution of Uyghurs in China
human rights concerns in Xinjiang
China is treating its Uyghurs well.
Uyghurs in China are being oppressed.
It's a weird thing to lead a discussion with the term "genocide", and then use it interchangeably with all these others terms, getting noticeably less precise the deeper into your post.
Also:
They control what their citizens can see on the Internet, monitor every communication happening through their messaging apps, and often detains, without trial, dissidents who dare to call out the government for its wrongdoings.
This is America, lol.
Funny that even his source doesn't say genocide anywhere. But he's so adamant at using the word genocide.
Brb gonna do a Promethian solution to the world's energy needs by harnessing the power of libs' perpetually moving goalposts
I was trying to use different terms for the same thing so that my post does not become boring to read.
So you stumbled into radically left wing instance, badly prepared and as soon as you encountered some sourced pushback ignored it and engaged in extremely hostile behaviour, yet it's the hexbearians who were rude and should be defedded from?
Just look at your comment history, how much of it was actually defending your position and how much of it whining?
Sounds like you got in some personal argument on one or two threads and now want a whole instance blocked
Including one in ChapoTrapHouse, if you don't agree with their politics I'd definitely just stay outta there, you CAN block communities.
Thanks for the reply. Actually I got in some arguments about politics but then Hexbears degraded it into a personal argument. This has happened several times.
Edit: I just read your edit. Will definitely stay away from cth. Thanks.
I applaud OP for the the citations and research. I appreciate his linking to the UNHRC report, but nowhere in that report does it mention "genocide". I'd honestly like people to compare it to multiple UNHRC reports on US treatment of its black population.
I'm no expert, maybe China is taking an overly heavy hand in Xinjiang. But to call it a genocide when no evidence exists for mass killing, and when the US war on terror lead to 5 million actual deaths, is absurd projection and and diminishes the value of the word "genocide".
Thanks. I am aware of the George Floyd incident and the numerous others African-Americans killed for no good reason.
Yes, in hindsight, calling that genocide with no real evidence of direct killing is a bit too much. But the report I linked to mentioned coercive birth control and internment or imprisonment for violations of the family planning policy (page 35). While that indeed is not genocide per se, it does seem to bring what China is doing one step toward that direction.
Genocide doesn't have to involve any direct killing. The problem isn't that you fail to produce evidence of killing, it's that you fail to produce any evidence of genocide at all.
Why is it that no muslim country in the world agrees with your assessment of this "genocide?" Why is it that the country which, in the 2010s, was dropping bombs on Uyghurs is now their greatest advocate? Doesn't that sound a little fishy to you? Could it be that this is a lie fabricated to weaken the greatest enemy of the US? No, couldn't possibly be. Back to believing everything US news says.
Yes, in hindsight, calling that genocide with no real evidence of direct killing is a bit too much.
👍
But the report I linked to mentioned coercive birth control and internment or imprisonment for violations of the family planning policy (page 35).
Your interpretation is much stronger than the report: 'but remained “seriously concerned about reported instances of the use of coercive measures, including forced abortion and forced sterilization, with a view to limiting births”'. I'm not even saying that it isn't happening. But if it was a massive problem, you'd think there'd be more than reports. There are mobile phones and foreign tourists in Xinjiang, it's not like the government would be able to forcibly abort 10% of babies there without someone taking a smartphone video of the abortion police coming to their home.
I'm reminded that forced sterilisation of minorities in the US is a known fact.
I'm reminded that forced sterilisation of minorities in the US is a known fact.
Thanks, I was completely unaware of this and I've seen a lot of documentation of NA atrocities.
TL:DR you lost an argument and want to make it everyone else's problem.
okay but here's the thing - you commented on cth. what did you expect
this is like going on to 4chan /r9k/ or /pol/, being offended, then writing a letter to your isp saying "can you block access to 4chan for your customers"
don't ask lemm.ee to defederate, just block the community
also the megathread is probably locked for a reason
We do a new Megathread every day and lock the old one to keep discussion current. We wouldn't lock a whole megathread because of one unimaginative impotent weasel Nazi sympathizer.
i think randint is talking about the lemmee megathread where we were discussing whether to defed hexbear. i have no idea why he'd post this on your megathread
have no idea why he'd post this on your megathread
You'd be surprised how often that actually happens.
really? just people posting their thoughts on your instance? what's the point?
If you're not coming in with hot takes about foreign affairs the vibes are top notch. Why wouldn't people come to our instance to shitpost?
oh hi aktion. you know you're being talked about?
and yeah, that's mostly my experience on hexbear lemmyspheres, although i must admit i don't do a lot of shitposting
Yes it's very funny to all of us seeing someone run directly from an argument and repeat the digs you took at them for not researching their claims before making them. It's very funny how upset they are at being told their opinion isn't worth sharing because it wasn't investigated and it's very funny seeing it quoted without the reason given. I'm having a lovely time, thank you.
Yes, that's what I am talking about. The Hexbear Federation Megathread posted by our admin about 2 weeks ago. I have never posted on any megathread on Hexbear.
you commented on cth.
Well yeah I guess I should have expected this coming lol. But to be fair I don't think me commenting on cth justifies their personal insults.
Also, another half of personal insults happened on !worldnews@lemmy.ml.
Well yeah I guess I should have expected this coming lol. But to be fair I don’t think me commenting on cth justifies their personal insults.
no, it doesn't. but it also doesn't justify you demanding that l.ee blocks them entirely. personally, i haven't had any bad experiences w/ hexbear, and i'm subscribed to at least one of their lemmyspheres.
Also, another half of personal insults happened on !worldnews@lemmy.ml.
yeah, that i can't (and have no plans to) defend. but my i did skim the thread i believe you're talking about, and whilst some of your ripostes are quite good; my advice would just be to block AntiOutsideAktion@hexbear.net and just not engage. just walk away from the computer and make a cup of tea. i know that's what i do
if you feel like being courteous you can tell the person that, or you can just block them and not respond
I think I have made it pretty clear that while I condemn Zenz fatuous remarks on Nazis, I still believe that his observations about Xinjiang are not necessarily incorrect. However, numerous Hexbears gripped on to this point and repeatedly attacked and slandered me for defending Nazi apologia or outright claiming that I am a Nazi apologist.
I did not defend Nazi apologia or Nazi apologists.
They are literally lying to you. They are still defending a modern Nazi. By defending any of Zenz views on non-white people they are by definition doing Nazi apologia. The problem lies in that they had this pointed out and doubled down. I have plenty of critiques on China that aren't really relevant here, because my opinion of China isn't really on trial here. I am mostly concerned with the specific arguments and angle this user is coming at this with.
Much in the same way that there is a difference between someone criticizing George Soros for being a capitalist vs. Nazis who hate him because he is Jewish and wealthy.
nakoichi, i don't care. i'm not taking sides in an argument between you and randint: i'm saying that i like hexbear and i dont't want to defed them, and if randint doesn't like you i'm advising him in how not to get drawn into an argument
I think your conclusion is right but I think a more sound reasoning is that Zenz is plainly a christofascist and randint is defending Zenz by trying to argue that the Nazi sympathizing doesn't influence the validity of Zenz's other geopolitical claims. That is apologia for Zenz, which definitionally makes randint a fascist apologist.
Thanks for the suggestion. I actually have been considering blocking that user.
yeah don't consider it, just do it. maybe it's just me being influenced by tumblr cultr, but 1) he won't know, 2) there's no point in arguing with someone if neither of you are going to change the other's mind, 3) it harms no-one. just block anyone you don't want to talk to
i'll admit i almost never blocked anyone on reddit, but there were so many people it was kind of useless. here it actually can make a difference to your experience, i think
Thanks. I just blocked them, along with the person who told me to post dick pics (as screenshotted in my edit to the post)
Another thing people often dislike about Hexbears is that they often resort to ad hominem attacks when they can't win an argument. Just in the last 3 days, I have heard the following terms thrown at me: troll, shit, shithead, baby brain, Nazi apologist, colonial comprador, freak, nerd, rabid imperialist westerners, condescending dickbag, disingenuous idiot, and unimaginative impotent weasel. They love calling people names.
In addition, one user repeatedly claim that my comments are made "deliberately to start shit." Another said that "my opinions does not deserve to be heard" in response to me saying that my reason for leaving so many comments is just to voice my opinions. One even said, "Nothing you say has any value, and you deserve no regard."
I can't be 100% sure but this reads like a bit, and if it isn't it's still fucking hilarious. 10/10 copypasta
OP is legitimately a hexbear power replier along with awwyisss or whatever tf.
No thank you, I made an account on this instance because I felt like world was going too far with defed.
Big if true. Got a link or a screenshot to OP making that statement?
my edit of only striking it out instead of actually removing it was the biggest respect I can give to Hexbears users like you. but to be honest, when the members of a certain group is personally attacking you, is it possible to leave comments without the intention of making them look bad? In any case, I did not use any sort of insult toward any Hexbear users.
I admit, I did say that. But that was after being insulted by numerous Hexbear users. Also, I did not use insults towards them (unlike them who used insults liberally).
Your personal crusade against Hexbear is very very very amusing. Please continue.
rn
