Honestly the same as Red. I used to be one who was playing around with the viability of democratic socialism, but as I read of the historic examples, every single one died. Killed by the US. Allende in Chile, the italian marxists post ww2, Nasser in egypt, Patrice Lumumba in the Congo the United Arab Republic, Arbenz was barely even left but they initiated a terror campaign so intense its as if he was Castro. There are countless socialist and socialist adjacent leaders like them with human dignity and love of their people, who tried to do it "the right way" and were all slaughtered.
Anyone who did not immediately take up arms to entrench themselves, who did not make their nation a fortress, were immediately ripped to shreds. You have morals and a want to do right by people, as do we, but the US and its allies have no such disposition.
They fund nazi shock troops, trained the people who became Al Qaeda and the Taliban, Installed dozens of fascist dictatorships all over the world, and have caused their own holocaust in political killings through them. Thats just the start! They killed our own movements! The Black Panthers! They created COINTELPRO to hunt down every single leader of the civil rights movement. One they got may seem familiar: Malcolm X. They will fund the shit out of every single one of your competitors, be it fascist or liberal, they will bribe your army, they will assassinate your friends, drive you insane, and they will do so with a smile. In their eyes, just stepping on the toes of american imperialism to defend your people is enough for them to lash out.
Even the ones armed barely get away. Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia (US aided Pol Pot, and the socialist Vietnamese took him out), Korea, China, Basically the entirety of Africa and South America, The Soviets, the Greeks, Cuba, and several more were all scarred forever by the actions of the US. The Soviets specifically were invaded during the revolution by various foreign powers (US, UK, France, etc), Sanctioned to hell so that trade was almost impossible, fighting through one of the most intense civil wars at the time, subjected to one of the largest sabotage campaigns in history (yet), had to industrialize their country to western levels in 10 years where it took capitalists 100 during said sabotage and after said civil war, subjected to the largest land invasion in history by the most evil empire in history (lots of history being made), lost 30 million people in that war, lost major parts of their industrial and infrastructure capacity, had to rebuild and reorganize themselves and eastern Europe from scratch, then subjected to military and political encirclement by the richest countries on earth, and all of this within 30 years. There are people who had to fight, suffer, and survive through each of those while they were teens to adults. They survived. It took 70 years of the most intense military, political, and subversive pressure known to man before people like them could be broken. They did it to tell us that it is possible. Even through the most hellish of conditions, it is possible. Just keep fighting. This isn't even mentioning the insane struggles of the Chinese communists in the civil war, sino japanese war, and then Korean war. The Struggle of the Vietnamese fighting off the US, Japan, and France in a thirty year span.
We do not choose violence because it is our favorite option, it is because it is our only option. I wish we could just get the bright world we both see in the future through little bloodshed, but its not possible.
Sorry for the long response, but this is very important to me. I have some books to recommend if you want.
This is very comprehensive, thanks for the explaination! What I was trying to ask though was what's hexbear's thoughts on Democratic socialism as a concept. I ask because everyone here seems to be very specifically communist which is fair but I don't think I'm quite there yet is all. I'm assuming this is because there are successful real world examples of communism such as The People's Republic of China vs the only ever failed attempts at a socialist country?
"Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be other-wise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy every advantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs' repressive fury, are then called "violent revolutionaries" and "terrorists."
-Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds.
Democratic Socialism, while a nice thought, does not have the internal strengths to combat capitalist forces from the outside. You cannot vote in socialism, nevertheless communism. The external systems of global hegemony will do anything in their power to destroy it. The concept of self-sufficiency on a national scale is nearly impossible, due to how global capitalism and finance imperialism works. The work that is required to be self-sufficient, especially under sanctions, from "western" capitalist nation, requires other countries that reject the western paradigm to be able to export goods. By definition, democratic socialism is a bandaid for capitalism, as it still requires the extraction of resources from the global south.
To clarify, when you said “you cannot vote in socialism” pretty sure you meant “you cannot vote in socialism,” not “in socialism, you cannot vote.” For outsiders who might be confused.
Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy every advantage in mobility and firepower?
I'm assuming this is because there are successful real world examples of communism such as The People's Republic of China vs the only ever failed attempts at a socialist country?
in a way, but the main point is that the bourgeoisie has its tools within bourgeois democracy and it's gonna use them to jeopardize every socialist effort
the chilean experience is the best one to show this imo, you can watch guzmán's "battle of chile" to see a good explanation (it's pretty widely available on the internet), but to sum it all up: first they blocked allende through all the institutional tools, such as congress and the judiciary (which tends to be very elitist by nature); once popular movements started pressuring with strikes and demonstrations, they used economic power, especially aided by america - they would shut down factories, transportation companies, call for sanctions, etc, all in an attempt to cause a supply crisis and demoralize the government and all social organizations; but popular movements again reacted, mostly by literally forcing up the factories and warehouses and keeping them working, since they knew bosses are basically useless for a company to actually be functional; after that happened, the bourgeoisie went for their last resort, the military, and finally the workers were crushed since there was no armed resistance as an answer
this was not a singular experience, but the norm throughout the 20th century: people would go forward, class relations would get really intense, then the military or paramilitary forces would kill everyone. the point is that capital can and always will use force, and once they do, you either react accordingly or you get crushed and killed. bear in mind, this is actually "understandable" - how would you feel if you were in their place? if your entire lifestyle was threatened by those under you? would you simply give up on all you have (and they have a lot of shit to lose)? fuck no, they are gonna have your ass arrested or killed, there's a limit to what people can lose without resorting to violence, and the whole point of socialism is that the bourgeoisie should eventually lose everything. we're talking about the entire disappearance of a class here - not the people belonging to it, mind you, they would just become common workers like all of us - but for a capitalist, becoming a simple worker is just hell
in a way, but the main point is that the bourgeoisie has its tools within bourgeois democracy and it's gonna use them to jeopardize every socialist effort
So you're saying Democratic socialism is flawed because it still allows elections, which are by nature corruptable?
no, cuba has elections, and is actually more inclusive than america in that sense
the point is you can't vote the bourgeoisie out of power because they simply won't let you. they will use their massive economic power to shut you down, in whatever ways said economic power can be used, including, as a last resort, to fund a violent reaction (through the army, paramilitary forces, or otherwise)
edit: oh, nvm, you mean democratic socialism not as a way to achieve socialism, but to run it? if that's the case then no socialist i've met has any issue with democracy at all, in fact most of us (at least among marxists) consider every socialist country to be more democratic than any capitalist one. we have a problem with liberal democracy, which we think is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie in disguise
you mean democratic socialism not as a way to achieve socialism, but to run it?
Yes, this! Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough. Good to know though. I'm still researching socialism so there's a lot I don't quite understand - I grew up religious conservative and have only been leftwing for the last few years. Definitely leaning hard into socialism the more I learn though. US voting is goddamn bullshit though with our archaic electoral college, gerrymandering, and the legal bribing we call "lobbying".
No, socialist states hold elections. The problem isn't democracy, it's the bourgeois control of "democratic" mechanisms in liberal society, which isn't "corruption" so much as the explicit intention of the design (why is there a Senate?).
Democratic Socialism is flawed because it attempts to enact change under an economic dictatorship, the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie. They hold all the factories, all the gun makers, all the money flow, all the software and telecommunications and electricity and water.
And so in order to enact Socialism you need to take those things away from the Bourgeoisie. This is what Communists really mean about establishing the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. It's not just political control by the workers, it's economic control. And unfortunately you can't vote your way to that if those who have economic control don't want you to.
I think we all want democracy. And, actually, plenty of existing socialist states do have democratic processes, despite being under threat from the United States. Cuba, for example, has regular elections and a large system of citizen councils. Here’s a video about Cuban democracy
You probably can’t start a Capitalism Party in Cuba and hand out leaflets saying “We should sell our land and factories to American businesses!” — because if Cuba allowed that, America would pour a billion dollars a year into funding and training and staffing that party, insert CIA agents into the staff, publish a Capitalism Party newspaper full of slander and propaganda, engineer Cuban elections, and start to gnaw at Cuba from the inside. The party would become a beachhead for counterrevolution.
Restrictions on democracy in communist countries are a wartime measure to fend off capitalists. The more open and democratic your country is, the greater the attack surface. That doesn’t mean actually existing socialist (AES) states have no democratic processes at all, but they have to be vigilant and ensure that positions of power are occupied by committed and capable socialists.
successful real world examples of communism such as the PRC vs the only ever failed attempts at a socialist country
you label the successful, presumably less democratic nations “communist,” and the failed, presumably more democratic nations “socialist,” but I would say the terms communist and socialist don’t really work that way. To be honest we mostly use the terms interchangeably lol, but I would say “Socialist” is a descriptor while “Communist” is a goal, where you aspire to be a classless, moneyless, stateless society in the future, and to survive in the meantime while keeping capitalists out of power.
Literally it is impossible to achieve socialism by Bourgeoisie Democratic means, they will do everything within their power to kill the movement.
By chance, what do you mean by Democratic Socialism? A lot of the times it gets mixed up. If you mean democracy inside socialism, then there is no problem there. Communism and Democracy are hand-in-hand, in every ideology of socialism. Democratic Centralism is what we preach as Marxist Leninists.
If you mean Social Democracy like that of the nords, we can effectively explain how those are not effective examples of worker power, and just ineffective in general.
Again, I think you mean Democracy within socialism, which is something we aim to protect. We do not throw away democracy.
Okay so basically there are two kinds, these are based on dictatorships of class (not of people, dictatorships aren't a good thing)
Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie: the thing that 'democracy' is usually represented as. Its the UK, US, Germany, Russia, etc. These governments, although allow some form of popular democracy, are system established by and for the rich. Most people in the US would like a decrease of military spending to focus on infrastructure and free healthcare, so why don't they implement it? Its not profitable to the class dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The profit motive is the main drive. Wars are terrible, no sane person wants one to happen, but to the large private war industries it is profitable, so they make sure we (all bourgeoisie dictatorships do this) is always instigating wars or inflaming conflicts. Purely for profit. We as workers have some sway over politics, but that is due to concessions and freedoms we forced out of them. It is in their eternal material interest to make the most money out of the lowest cost, by every underhanded tactic in the book.
This is in direct contrast to the interests of the worker, who dare to want fulfilling lives and to have a state that gives according to need, and from everyone according to ability. Workers want things like Free Universal Education, Well built/maintained infrastructure, A good house, reliable source of food that is healthy and cheap, large working benefits, government safety nets, etc. A society that works on what is most effective possible, while favoring the living status of the worker. This is, again, in direct conflict with the profit motive and thus the interests of the bourgeoisie. Their efforts to suppress our self-determination and our efforts to draw concessions of power is basically what we define as Class War. Our democracies are that for the rich, who hold all the power and all the wings of government. Under Bourgeoisie Democracy, there will be this constant class war. We the worker are the oppressed, and the owning class are the oppressors.
This is where the second Dictatorship of Class comes in handy. You see, what they're afraid of is due to this fact: we don't need them at all anymore, haven't for hundreds of years, if ever. We know this clearly, and it terrifies them. A Dictatorship of the Proletariat is the inevitable result of this contradiction. To solve the Class war, we will use our own power (gained through the concessions to labor power), to win the war by hijacking the class dictatorship and flipping it. The State serves us, and so we are able to implement what is in our interests against theirs. We take their factories and office building, thus rendering them basically powerless. We have taken their tools and truly made it our own. We built the world, they did not, why should the capitalists run it? We can run the workplaces and co-operate for the common good of all. A human oriented society. That is the true democracy where change can be made. A democracy in politics, the community, and the workplace. A state that enforces our rights above that of property. There is a better world, it has been done, and we can have it in our lives.
if thats not what you're talking about, then idk have this okayish explanation of the class dictatorship
Vietnam and Cuba are absolutely inarguable and Laos and the DPRK are still kicking. The USSR did eventually fall to sabotage after ~75 years, but by the metric that any state that ever dissolves is somehow to be entirely considered a "failed attempt," and we would need to say the same of a great many "liberal" states.
There are plenty of anarchists on the sub, and not all Socialists here are massive fans of China (I think most have pretty severe critique on some of their recent LGBT+ policies).
But we do for the most part offer it "Critical Support" meaning that we assume it is trying to be Socialist in good faith and criticise it as a friend and ally, not an enemy "corrupting Socialism". (China does not claim to be Socialist yet, it is "building Socialism", and expects to complete the lower stage of that around 2050. Even the Soviets didn't claim to have built Socialism until 1970.)
There are some exceptions of course; many here will, for instance, support Vietnam over China in any disputes they may have, despite Vietnam currently having a marginally better relationship with the USA. This is generally because Vietnam is doing very well for itself, has good LGBT policies, and of course the memory of Vietnam putting down Pol Pot.
its a touchy subject yeah, but again all good faith arguments. If you see China as more of an enemy than that of NATO and the US, you will find no friends here.
The short answer is that democratic socialism requires using institutions deeply intertwined with capitalism to vote it out of existence, and the forces of capital will use every tool, legal and illegal, to prevent it – that's what other users are trying to point out with the examples. It's a dead end that never works.
What I was trying to ask though was what's hexbear's thoughts on Democratic socialism as a concept
I'm new here, but from my understanding we're a leftist unity instance! So folks will have opinions across the spectrum. Communists and anarchists generally do not like democratic socialism, or think that it isn't a viable way to achieve socialism. Most Hexbear users from my understanding and experience seem to fall into one of those two camps, but you're still welcome :)
-no wreckers
-no social democrats (liberalism, also rosa learned the hard way)
-no pushing of electoralism as the end all be all strat. It is useful in a minor extent, and only for communist party power.
-no uninformed bashing of AES or bringing up debunked nonsense.
but asking questions and whatnot is completely fine, and its fine to chill, theres just still rules that we must go by. Being to lax can have its consequences.
Honestly the same as Red. I used to be one who was playing around with the viability of democratic socialism, but as I read of the historic examples, every single one died. Killed by the US. Allende in Chile, the italian marxists post ww2, Nasser in egypt, Patrice Lumumba in the Congo the United Arab Republic, Arbenz was barely even left but they initiated a terror campaign so intense its as if he was Castro. There are countless socialist and socialist adjacent leaders like them with human dignity and love of their people, who tried to do it "the right way" and were all slaughtered.
Anyone who did not immediately take up arms to entrench themselves, who did not make their nation a fortress, were immediately ripped to shreds. You have morals and a want to do right by people, as do we, but the US and its allies have no such disposition.
They fund nazi shock troops, trained the people who became Al Qaeda and the Taliban, Installed dozens of fascist dictatorships all over the world, and have caused their own holocaust in political killings through them. Thats just the start! They killed our own movements! The Black Panthers! They created COINTELPRO to hunt down every single leader of the civil rights movement. One they got may seem familiar: Malcolm X. They will fund the shit out of every single one of your competitors, be it fascist or liberal, they will bribe your army, they will assassinate your friends, drive you insane, and they will do so with a smile. In their eyes, just stepping on the toes of american imperialism to defend your people is enough for them to lash out.
Even the ones armed barely get away. Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia (US aided Pol Pot, and the socialist Vietnamese took him out), Korea, China, Basically the entirety of Africa and South America, The Soviets, the Greeks, Cuba, and several more were all scarred forever by the actions of the US. The Soviets specifically were invaded during the revolution by various foreign powers (US, UK, France, etc), Sanctioned to hell so that trade was almost impossible, fighting through one of the most intense civil wars at the time, subjected to one of the largest sabotage campaigns in history (yet), had to industrialize their country to western levels in 10 years where it took capitalists 100 during said sabotage and after said civil war, subjected to the largest land invasion in history by the most evil empire in history (lots of history being made), lost 30 million people in that war, lost major parts of their industrial and infrastructure capacity, had to rebuild and reorganize themselves and eastern Europe from scratch, then subjected to military and political encirclement by the richest countries on earth, and all of this within 30 years. There are people who had to fight, suffer, and survive through each of those while they were teens to adults. They survived. It took 70 years of the most intense military, political, and subversive pressure known to man before people like them could be broken. They did it to tell us that it is possible. Even through the most hellish of conditions, it is possible. Just keep fighting. This isn't even mentioning the insane struggles of the Chinese communists in the civil war, sino japanese war, and then Korean war. The Struggle of the Vietnamese fighting off the US, Japan, and France in a thirty year span.
We do not choose violence because it is our favorite option, it is because it is our only option. I wish we could just get the bright world we both see in the future through little bloodshed, but its not possible.
Sorry for the long response, but this is very important to me. I have some books to recommend if you want.
The list of nonviolent revolutionaries and their fates at capitalist hands is like the list of terminated superheroes from The Incredibles
Exactly what I thought writing it down, someone should make it
Where is Eugene Dabs when we need them
This one is close to what you're thinking of
...because we're about to be buried under a bunch of sticky balls?
This is very comprehensive, thanks for the explaination! What I was trying to ask though was what's hexbear's thoughts on Democratic socialism as a concept. I ask because everyone here seems to be very specifically communist which is fair but I don't think I'm quite there yet is all. I'm assuming this is because there are successful real world examples of communism such as The People's Republic of China vs the only ever failed attempts at a socialist country?
"Most social revolutions begin peaceably. Why would it be other-wise? Who would not prefer to assemble and demonstrate rather than engage in mortal combat against pitiless forces that enjoy every advantage in mobility and firepower? Revolutions in Russia, China, Vietnam, and El Salvador all began peacefully, with crowds of peasants and workers launching nonviolent protests only to be met with violent oppression from the authorities. Peaceful protest and reform are exactly what the people are denied by the ruling oligarchs. The dissidents who continue to fight back, who try to defend themselves from the oligarchs' repressive fury, are then called "violent revolutionaries" and "terrorists."
-Michael Parenti, Blackshirts and Reds.
Democratic Socialism, while a nice thought, does not have the internal strengths to combat capitalist forces from the outside. You cannot vote in socialism, nevertheless communism. The external systems of global hegemony will do anything in their power to destroy it. The concept of self-sufficiency on a national scale is nearly impossible, due to how global capitalism and finance imperialism works. The work that is required to be self-sufficient, especially under sanctions, from "western" capitalist nation, requires other countries that reject the western paradigm to be able to export goods. By definition, democratic socialism is a bandaid for capitalism, as it still requires the extraction of resources from the global south.
To clarify, when you said “you cannot vote in socialism” pretty sure you meant “you cannot vote in socialism,” not “in socialism, you cannot vote.” For outsiders who might be confused.
Yeah, that was my intent. Sorry. I wrote this during a midnight bathroom break while i was half-asleep.
lol o7
It was a great comment though
in a way, but the main point is that the bourgeoisie has its tools within bourgeois democracy and it's gonna use them to jeopardize every socialist effort
the chilean experience is the best one to show this imo, you can watch guzmán's "battle of chile" to see a good explanation (it's pretty widely available on the internet), but to sum it all up: first they blocked allende through all the institutional tools, such as congress and the judiciary (which tends to be very elitist by nature); once popular movements started pressuring with strikes and demonstrations, they used economic power, especially aided by america - they would shut down factories, transportation companies, call for sanctions, etc, all in an attempt to cause a supply crisis and demoralize the government and all social organizations; but popular movements again reacted, mostly by literally forcing up the factories and warehouses and keeping them working, since they knew bosses are basically useless for a company to actually be functional; after that happened, the bourgeoisie went for their last resort, the military, and finally the workers were crushed since there was no armed resistance as an answer
this was not a singular experience, but the norm throughout the 20th century: people would go forward, class relations would get really intense, then the military or paramilitary forces would kill everyone. the point is that capital can and always will use force, and once they do, you either react accordingly or you get crushed and killed. bear in mind, this is actually "understandable" - how would you feel if you were in their place? if your entire lifestyle was threatened by those under you? would you simply give up on all you have (and they have a lot of shit to lose)? fuck no, they are gonna have your ass arrested or killed, there's a limit to what people can lose without resorting to violence, and the whole point of socialism is that the bourgeoisie should eventually lose everything. we're talking about the entire disappearance of a class here - not the people belonging to it, mind you, they would just become common workers like all of us - but for a capitalist, becoming a simple worker is just hell
So you're saying Democratic socialism is flawed because it still allows elections, which are by nature corruptable?
no, cuba has elections, and is actually more inclusive than america in that sense
the point is you can't vote the bourgeoisie out of power because they simply won't let you. they will use their massive economic power to shut you down, in whatever ways said economic power can be used, including, as a last resort, to fund a violent reaction (through the army, paramilitary forces, or otherwise)
edit: oh, nvm, you mean democratic socialism not as a way to achieve socialism, but to run it? if that's the case then no socialist i've met has any issue with democracy at all, in fact most of us (at least among marxists) consider every socialist country to be more democratic than any capitalist one. we have a problem with liberal democracy, which we think is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie in disguise
Yes, this! Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough. Good to know though. I'm still researching socialism so there's a lot I don't quite understand - I grew up religious conservative and have only been leftwing for the last few years. Definitely leaning hard into socialism the more I learn though. US voting is goddamn bullshit though with our archaic electoral college, gerrymandering, and the legal bribing we call "lobbying".
No, socialist states hold elections. The problem isn't democracy, it's the bourgeois control of "democratic" mechanisms in liberal society, which isn't "corruption" so much as the explicit intention of the design (why is there a Senate?).
Democratic Socialism is flawed because it attempts to enact change under an economic dictatorship, the Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie. They hold all the factories, all the gun makers, all the money flow, all the software and telecommunications and electricity and water.
And so in order to enact Socialism you need to take those things away from the Bourgeoisie. This is what Communists really mean about establishing the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. It's not just political control by the workers, it's economic control. And unfortunately you can't vote your way to that if those who have economic control don't want you to.
I think we all want democracy. And, actually, plenty of existing socialist states do have democratic processes, despite being under threat from the United States. Cuba, for example, has regular elections and a large system of citizen councils. Here’s a video about Cuban democracy
You probably can’t start a Capitalism Party in Cuba and hand out leaflets saying “We should sell our land and factories to American businesses!” — because if Cuba allowed that, America would pour a billion dollars a year into funding and training and staffing that party, insert CIA agents into the staff, publish a Capitalism Party newspaper full of slander and propaganda, engineer Cuban elections, and start to gnaw at Cuba from the inside. The party would become a beachhead for counterrevolution.
Restrictions on democracy in communist countries are a wartime measure to fend off capitalists. The more open and democratic your country is, the greater the attack surface. That doesn’t mean actually existing socialist (AES) states have no democratic processes at all, but they have to be vigilant and ensure that positions of power are occupied by committed and capable socialists.
you label the successful, presumably less democratic nations “communist,” and the failed, presumably more democratic nations “socialist,” but I would say the terms communist and socialist don’t really work that way. To be honest we mostly use the terms interchangeably lol, but I would say “Socialist” is a descriptor while “Communist” is a goal, where you aspire to be a classless, moneyless, stateless society in the future, and to survive in the meantime while keeping capitalists out of power.
Literally it is impossible to achieve socialism by Bourgeoisie Democratic means, they will do everything within their power to kill the movement.
By chance, what do you mean by Democratic Socialism? A lot of the times it gets mixed up. If you mean democracy inside socialism, then there is no problem there. Communism and Democracy are hand-in-hand, in every ideology of socialism. Democratic Centralism is what we preach as Marxist Leninists.
If you mean Social Democracy like that of the nords, we can effectively explain how those are not effective examples of worker power, and just ineffective in general.
Again, I think you mean Democracy within socialism, which is something we aim to protect. We do not throw away democracy.
Okay so basically there are two kinds, these are based on dictatorships of class (not of people, dictatorships aren't a good thing)
Dictatorship of the Bourgeoisie: the thing that 'democracy' is usually represented as. Its the UK, US, Germany, Russia, etc. These governments, although allow some form of popular democracy, are system established by and for the rich. Most people in the US would like a decrease of military spending to focus on infrastructure and free healthcare, so why don't they implement it? Its not profitable to the class dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The profit motive is the main drive. Wars are terrible, no sane person wants one to happen, but to the large private war industries it is profitable, so they make sure we (all bourgeoisie dictatorships do this) is always instigating wars or inflaming conflicts. Purely for profit. We as workers have some sway over politics, but that is due to concessions and freedoms we forced out of them. It is in their eternal material interest to make the most money out of the lowest cost, by every underhanded tactic in the book.
This is in direct contrast to the interests of the worker, who dare to want fulfilling lives and to have a state that gives according to need, and from everyone according to ability. Workers want things like Free Universal Education, Well built/maintained infrastructure, A good house, reliable source of food that is healthy and cheap, large working benefits, government safety nets, etc. A society that works on what is most effective possible, while favoring the living status of the worker. This is, again, in direct conflict with the profit motive and thus the interests of the bourgeoisie. Their efforts to suppress our self-determination and our efforts to draw concessions of power is basically what we define as Class War. Our democracies are that for the rich, who hold all the power and all the wings of government. Under Bourgeoisie Democracy, there will be this constant class war. We the worker are the oppressed, and the owning class are the oppressors.
This is where the second Dictatorship of Class comes in handy. You see, what they're afraid of is due to this fact: we don't need them at all anymore, haven't for hundreds of years, if ever. We know this clearly, and it terrifies them. A Dictatorship of the Proletariat is the inevitable result of this contradiction. To solve the Class war, we will use our own power (gained through the concessions to labor power), to win the war by hijacking the class dictatorship and flipping it. The State serves us, and so we are able to implement what is in our interests against theirs. We take their factories and office building, thus rendering them basically powerless. We have taken their tools and truly made it our own. We built the world, they did not, why should the capitalists run it? We can run the workplaces and co-operate for the common good of all. A human oriented society. That is the true democracy where change can be made. A democracy in politics, the community, and the workplace. A state that enforces our rights above that of property. There is a better world, it has been done, and we can have it in our lives.
if thats not what you're talking about, then idk have this okayish explanation of the class dictatorship
Vietnam and Cuba are absolutely inarguable and Laos and the DPRK are still kicking. The USSR did eventually fall to sabotage after ~75 years, but by the metric that any state that ever dissolves is somehow to be entirely considered a "failed attempt," and we would need to say the same of a great many "liberal" states.
There are plenty of anarchists on the sub, and not all Socialists here are massive fans of China (I think most have pretty severe critique on some of their recent LGBT+ policies).
But we do for the most part offer it "Critical Support" meaning that we assume it is trying to be Socialist in good faith and criticise it as a friend and ally, not an enemy "corrupting Socialism". (China does not claim to be Socialist yet, it is "building Socialism", and expects to complete the lower stage of that around 2050. Even the Soviets didn't claim to have built Socialism until 1970.)
There are some exceptions of course; many here will, for instance, support Vietnam over China in any disputes they may have, despite Vietnam currently having a marginally better relationship with the USA. This is generally because Vietnam is doing very well for itself, has good LGBT policies, and of course the memory of Vietnam putting down Pol Pot.
its a touchy subject yeah, but again all good faith arguments. If you see China as more of an enemy than that of NATO and the US, you will find no friends here.
The short answer is that democratic socialism requires using institutions deeply intertwined with capitalism to vote it out of existence, and the forces of capital will use every tool, legal and illegal, to prevent it – that's what other users are trying to point out with the examples. It's a dead end that never works.
I'm new here, but from my understanding we're a leftist unity instance! So folks will have opinions across the spectrum. Communists and anarchists generally do not like democratic socialism, or think that it isn't a viable way to achieve socialism. Most Hexbear users from my understanding and experience seem to fall into one of those two camps, but you're still welcome :)
uh theres a breaking point to left unity
-no wreckers -no social democrats (liberalism, also rosa learned the hard way) -no pushing of electoralism as the end all be all strat. It is useful in a minor extent, and only for communist party power. -no uninformed bashing of AES or bringing up debunked nonsense.
but asking questions and whatnot is completely fine, and its fine to chill, theres just still rules that we must go by. Being to lax can have its consequences.