Ukraine told critics of the pace of its three-month-old counteroffensive to "shut up" on Thursday, the sharpest signal yet of Kyiv's frustration at leaks from Western officials that say its forces are advancing too slowly.
Now if Hitler, or one of his generals, said that the Poles didn't attack after all, what would you think of that? Might you take it as an admission that the Nazis had lied?
I concede that, if we live in your counterfactual reality where Hitler did the exact opposite of what he actually did, you'd have a point.
I know what you're trying to say but i think you're trying to stretch reality to fit your comparison instead of trying to make an accurate comparison around reality.
Maybe you should look for other real world examples that would fit your comparison better. I bet there are plenty of examples of nazis in nations fighting the nazis doing genocide denial during ww2 that you could find.
I mean I kinda thought of Hitler and him being a cake-eating vegetarian and then had to improvise afterwards. I did try to pedal back a bit and say "or one of his generals".
Oh and it wasn't just Nazis who denied the holocaust back then. There was an IIRC French historian I can't recall the name who went in there not believing such a thing possible, then saw concentration camps with his own eyes, and went on to compile a minimum number, with the intent that if you say a lower one, you're definitely denying because the number is unassailable, as a minimum (but probably higher. Most definitely probably higher, in fact). Threw out e.g. SS reports because they could be claimed to be fabricated to get a promotion and shit.
I mean hexbears are otherwise so willing to take Russian sources at face value, e.g. when it comes to claims about Russian speakers getting supposedly oppressed and genocided by the Ukrainian state... then why not trust Pregozhin? What makes him less trustworthy than Solovyov?
I can’t speak for everyone, but I definitely don’t find Russian media particularly trustworthy, we like to do a little thing called critical thinking instead of just blindly accepting things
Oh there's plenty of other reasons to impeach Trump. Why would he even be impeached over that, though. I don't really follow US news, it's silly over there.
His first impeachment was over him extracting personal political benefit from sending weapons to Ukraine that they were using to carry out their ethnic cleansing
If the ethnic cleansing were 100% fabricated by Russian propaganda then the Hillary Cliintons of the USA are Putin bots.
You are aware that Russia already invaded in 2014?
No they didn't. They were already there. The biggest feature of Crimea is the naval base that Russia had been leasing since Ukraine had a legitimately elected government. When the US supported Nazi led coup regime took power they tried to cancel the lease. The Russians simply stayed put. They didn't invade. They were already there.
Are there any more fundamental understandings of recent history you would like me to catch you up on?
Nah it shows that the US had opinions on Ukraine. US emissaries also tried to convince protestors to enter negotiations and compromise with Yanukovich and they were having none of that.
US emissaries and the Rada coming to the same conclusion when it comes to who is a good interim whatever isn't terribly surprising, you always pick prominent, well-respected, honourable, non-partisan middle of the road people for that kind of thing. People who can be trusted to organise proper elections and not fuck shit up in the meantime.
you always pick prominent, well-respected, honourable, non-partisan middle of the road people for that kind of thing. People who can be trusted to organise proper elections and not fuck shit up in the meantime.
Is this a joke? The US sidelined the main opposition forces who wanted to stay on good terms with both Russia and the US in favor of literal nazis. The new president was the leader of the "fatherland party" until he splintered it off into an even more conservative group which had a military council of nazi paramilitary leaders and was basically generically called "national socialist party"
Turchynov? You can say a lot of things about him especially that he's conservative, but not that he wouldn't be a democrat. But who was interim wasn't important in the first place as then there were elections.
Those were won by Poroshenko who was rather heavy-handed in the east, also socially conservative, which made people (for one or both of those reasons) vote for Zelensky -- an ethnic Russian, running on a "let's try to be friends" platform, but not one of those "let's just bend over for Russia and let the Kremlin rule the country" people, either.
Those are all descisions of the Ukrainian electorate. To imply that that was all the US reeks of conspiratorial American exceptionalism. Believe it or not things happen without the CIA having their dirty fingers in it.
Sorry. The prime Minister was the nazi, I forget that ukraine has both.
But generally yes the people that nuland and pyatt installed ruined contrary to ukrainian interests. Neutrality was how they avoided war. Things leaned too far to Russia, that caused a coup that led to an anti-russia government which led to the war.
Ever wonder why they impeached him over some bullshit most people didn't give a fuck about in a country most people didn't know existed at the time instead of the mountains of evidence of his predatory behavior?
"You and I know what is happening in Donbass," referring to the conflict zone in the east of the country, adding that: "It certainly looks like genocide."
Putin has previously made similar comparisons about the war in eastern Ukraine including in 2015 and 2019.
And that law forbids people from speaking Russian... how?
Love how liberals act really fucking smart 99% of the time and suddenly get really fucking stupid as soon as their shit is called on.
How about a friendly game of whataboutism? What about if the US right wing succeeded in making English the official language of the United States? What would happen to all the people who speak Spanish primarily?
(Psst... are we not talking about the killings then? All the pogroms and murders sure seem to have gotten left on the wayside of this conversation.)
If the US introduced that law then anyone who were to print a Spanish publication would also have to print it in English.
Which sounds strange but then you have to consider that Russia has been trying to eradicate the Ukrainian language since Catherine the Great. Ukrainian was actually outlawed. Present-day Ukrainian is simply making sure that Ukraine is the lingua franca of Ukraine and is, as said, in full compliance with the ECRML. Which the US doesn't ratify either btw and it won't because then suddenly they'd have to stop eradicating native languages.
Russia has been trying to eradicate the Ukrainian language since Catherine the Great
Even if that was true and not some harebrained ahistorical overgeneralisation what does that have to do with how the Ukrainian state treats it's Russian-speaking population? We are talking about an Ukrainian law, imposed by the Ukrainian state on Ukrainian citizens living on Ukrainian-controlled territory. How is trying to eradicate the Russian language in Ukraine preventing the alleged Russian policy of eradicating the Ukrainian language in Russia? How does one wrong justify another?
Ukrainian has been an official minority language of the Russian Federation since the breakup of the USSR and schools in Russia's new territories are teaching an Ukrainian-language curriculum to students whose families so desires. There's probably plenty of bad things to say about the Russian education system but giving a language you are hellbent on eradicating official status and teaching it at schools seems like an odd thing to do.
The European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages (ECRML) is a European treaty (CETS 148) adopted in 1992 under the auspices of the Council of Europe
The Venice Commission, the Council of Europe’s top advisory body on constitutional matters, said that several of the law’s articles, including article 25, “failed to strike a fair balance” between promoting the Ukrainian language and safeguarding minorities’ linguistic rights.
You have no clue what you're talking about. Maybe sit down and listen a little?
You hexbears were the ones starting this whole thing with "They outlawed speaking Russian", not knowing WTF you were talking about, easily disproved by looking anywhere but at Russian propaganda. It's not my responsibility to educate you in more than quips.
Bought or individually manipulated small content creators, in other words, astroturf. Believe it or not the FSB actually arrived in the 21st century and they know that the likes of RT are too on the nose to have wide-spread impact.
Also, targeted media amplification, like that Maersheimer video which suddenly went viral (and, ironically, was then amplified by, of all people, tankies. Must not have gotten the party memo that (rightly) decried geostrategic realism as imperialist apologia)
You're saying that small astroturfed internet personalities are the Russian Federation's primary means of legitmizing it's interests in the public eye? Bigger than oligarch-owned news station and media empires?
Can you name some of these bought or individually manipulated small content creators?
Bigger than oligarch-owned news station and media empires?
First off, you said "common", and yes there's definitely more of those than big media empires. Secondly, when it comes to impact, yes, I'd also say that they're having a relatively larger impact. RT can't even operate over here the institutional stooge of Russia over here is the AfD. To a lesser degree, Die Linke but they managed to deadlock themselves into arcane pseudo-pacifism, "Oh Ukraine should be helped but we shouldn't send weapons because we're Germany", the ultimate old guard new guard compromise.
Can you name some of these bought or individually manipulated small content creators?
It's kinda hard I don't want to say names because a lot of them might also be useful idiots. Like at least half of the tankiesphere on youtube, I have no way to tell whether Hasan has been groomed by Russia or is simply being an idiot on his own accord. If you look at the post history of random accounts commenting with Russian lines on youtube they very much look like bots.
Another rather more prominent example would be Elon Musk. He's definitely been worked over by Russia. Merely getting cold feet over starlink is one thing, suddenly using language such as "Lenin's mistake" in relation to Ukraine is a dead give away of direct exposure to Russian brainwashing. As to the rest of the platforms I wouldn't really know I don't frequent those.
The pattern of influencing is well-documented, though. There's a reason that "Russian bot farm" is a term (one of the first things that Ukraine blew up in Moscow, btw).
Well Zelensky did say that he was inspired by Israel and wanted to model Ukraine to be like Israel.
By slaughtering innocent minorities and stealing their land?
Yeah considering that's what they were doing in Donbass
Even Prigozhin said that the supposed genocide in Donbas is 100% a Russian propaganda fabrication. Stop parroting that bullshit.
So you agree with fascist mercenaries? Cool to know.
I also think cake tastes good which aligns me straight with Hitler.
Okay but people shouldn't take you seriously on cake if your argument is "Hitler agrees with my take on cake"
How about me agreeing with Hitler on "Poland didn't attack Germany"?
Hitler literally claimed that Poland attacked german soldiers.
https://www.annefrank.org/en/timeline/24/the-start-of-the-second-world-war-germany-invades-poland/
Yes. You're getting close.
Now if Hitler, or one of his generals, said that the Poles didn't attack after all, what would you think of that? Might you take it as an admission that the Nazis had lied?
I concede that, if we live in your counterfactual reality where Hitler did the exact opposite of what he actually did, you'd have a point.
I know what you're trying to say but i think you're trying to stretch reality to fit your comparison instead of trying to make an accurate comparison around reality.
Maybe you should look for other real world examples that would fit your comparison better. I bet there are plenty of examples of nazis in nations fighting the nazis doing genocide denial during ww2 that you could find.
I mean I kinda thought of Hitler and him being a cake-eating vegetarian and then had to improvise afterwards. I did try to pedal back a bit and say "or one of his generals".
Oh and it wasn't just Nazis who denied the holocaust back then. There was an IIRC French historian I can't recall the name who went in there not believing such a thing possible, then saw concentration camps with his own eyes, and went on to compile a minimum number, with the intent that if you say a lower one, you're definitely denying because the number is unassailable, as a minimum (but probably higher. Most definitely probably higher, in fact). Threw out e.g. SS reports because they could be claimed to be fabricated to get a promotion and shit.
Yeah, it's fucked up.
Also, thanks for engaging in good faith.
Well in this case it's more like even Hitler said "the jews weren't so bad at all"
Wouldn't it more be equivalent to Henry Ford or Hearst press during ww2 claiming that the nazis weren't brutalizing black and Jewish soldiers?
Nazi public figure claims nazis in enemy country aren't doing bad thing.
You didn’t need to cite hitler as the cake lover, could have picked anyone else
You didn’t have to pick the fascist mercenary army leader to agree with you on the other one, either. Yet you did for some reason
Is this supposed to prove anything but you have no scruples?
I mean hexbears are otherwise so willing to take Russian sources at face value, e.g. when it comes to claims about Russian speakers getting supposedly oppressed and genocided by the Ukrainian state... then why not trust Pregozhin? What makes him less trustworthy than Solovyov?
I can’t speak for everyone, but I definitely don’t find Russian media particularly trustworthy, we like to do a little thing called critical thinking instead of just blindly accepting things
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I don't trust Russia, but Pringles was not exactly an uninpeachable source of truth himself
If it's 100% fabrication then Trump shouldn't have been impeached
Oh there's plenty of other reasons to impeach Trump. Why would he even be impeached over that, though. I don't really follow US news, it's silly over there.
His first impeachment was over him extracting personal political benefit from sending weapons to Ukraine that they were using to carry out their ethnic cleansing
If the ethnic cleansing were 100% fabricated by Russian propaganda then the Hillary Cliintons of the USA are Putin bots.
You are aware that Russia already invaded in 2014? That this war has been going on for a while? Why wouldn't the US send Ukraine aid to defend itself?
Regarding the US reaction back then in general, though: Why didn't the US enforce the Budapest memorandum?
No they didn't. They were already there. The biggest feature of Crimea is the naval base that Russia had been leasing since Ukraine had a legitimately elected government. When the US supported Nazi led coup regime took power they tried to cancel the lease. The Russians simply stayed put. They didn't invade. They were already there.
Are there any more fundamental understandings of recent history you would like me to catch you up on?
You realise that Crimea is larger than Sevastopol and Donetsk and Luhansk are not on Crimea?
Also, that "US supported Nazi coup" is 100% Russian propaganda not backed by anything but fantasy?
Nuland/pyatt call at minimum shows that they took advantage of already existing protests to do a soft coup.
Nah it shows that the US had opinions on Ukraine. US emissaries also tried to convince protestors to enter negotiations and compromise with Yanukovich and they were having none of that.
US emissaries and the Rada coming to the same conclusion when it comes to who is a good interim whatever isn't terribly surprising, you always pick prominent, well-respected, honourable, non-partisan middle of the road people for that kind of thing. People who can be trusted to organise proper elections and not fuck shit up in the meantime.
Is this a joke? The US sidelined the main opposition forces who wanted to stay on good terms with both Russia and the US in favor of literal nazis. The new president was the leader of the "fatherland party" until he splintered it off into an even more conservative group which had a military council of nazi paramilitary leaders and was basically generically called "national socialist party"
Turchynov? You can say a lot of things about him especially that he's conservative, but not that he wouldn't be a democrat. But who was interim wasn't important in the first place as then there were elections.
Those were won by Poroshenko who was rather heavy-handed in the east, also socially conservative, which made people (for one or both of those reasons) vote for Zelensky -- an ethnic Russian, running on a "let's try to be friends" platform, but not one of those "let's just bend over for Russia and let the Kremlin rule the country" people, either.
Those are all descisions of the Ukrainian electorate. To imply that that was all the US reeks of conspiratorial American exceptionalism. Believe it or not things happen without the CIA having their dirty fingers in it.
Sorry. The prime Minister was the nazi, I forget that ukraine has both.
But generally yes the people that nuland and pyatt installed ruined contrary to ukrainian interests. Neutrality was how they avoided war. Things leaned too far to Russia, that caused a coup that led to an anti-russia government which led to the war.
Ever wonder why they impeached him over some bullshit most people didn't give a fuck about in a country most people didn't know existed at the time instead of the mountains of evidence of his predatory behavior?
No. Yanks impeached a President over a blowjob, that is, any- and everything.
Nobody said there was a genocide as far as I know, but there were many ethnic cleansing attempts.
On the contrary calling Russia activities "genocide" was very common. Programmed morons.
"You and I know what is happening in Donbass," referring to the conflict zone in the east of the country, adding that: "It certainly looks like genocide."
Putin has previously made similar comparisons about the war in eastern Ukraine including in 2015 and 2019.
Ethnic cleansing of Russian speakers by what, a Russian-speaking army?
By a government that passed laws against using their language and that detonated bombs on them
No such law was ever passed. You might be missing some details such as the Ukrainian army largely operating in Russian.
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-language-law-russian/31656441.html
Note that I'm using an explicitly western funded propaganda vehicle for my citation. I didn't have to do that. I did it purposefully to clown on you.
Shut the fuck up. You just took a factual stand on a topic you did no research on. Your opinion is of no value. Stop sharing it.
And that law forbids people from speaking Russian... how?
Ukraine is in full compliance with the ECRML. Russia isn't even a signatory.
Love how liberals act really fucking smart 99% of the time and suddenly get really fucking stupid as soon as their shit is called on.
How about a friendly game of whataboutism? What about if the US right wing succeeded in making English the official language of the United States? What would happen to all the people who speak Spanish primarily?
(Psst... are we not talking about the killings then? All the pogroms and murders sure seem to have gotten left on the wayside of this conversation.)
If the US introduced that law then anyone who were to print a Spanish publication would also have to print it in English.
Which sounds strange but then you have to consider that Russia has been trying to eradicate the Ukrainian language since Catherine the Great. Ukrainian was actually outlawed. Present-day Ukrainian is simply making sure that Ukraine is the lingua franca of Ukraine and is, as said, in full compliance with the ECRML. Which the US doesn't ratify either btw and it won't because then suddenly they'd have to stop eradicating native languages.
Even if that was true and not some harebrained ahistorical overgeneralisation what does that have to do with how the Ukrainian state treats it's Russian-speaking population? We are talking about an Ukrainian law, imposed by the Ukrainian state on Ukrainian citizens living on Ukrainian-controlled territory. How is trying to eradicate the Russian language in Ukraine preventing the alleged Russian policy of eradicating the Ukrainian language in Russia? How does one wrong justify another?
Ukrainian has been an official minority language of the Russian Federation since the breakup of the USSR and schools in Russia's new territories are teaching an Ukrainian-language curriculum to students whose families so desires. There's probably plenty of bad things to say about the Russian education system but giving a language you are hellbent on eradicating official status and teaching it at schools seems like an odd thing to do.
This ECRML?
Huh, wonder what the Council of Europe thinks of Ukraine's language law:
You have no clue what you're talking about. Maybe sit down and listen a little?
You hexbears were the ones starting this whole thing with "They outlawed speaking Russian", not knowing WTF you were talking about, easily disproved by looking anywhere but at Russian propaganda. It's not my responsibility to educate you in more than quips.
What, in your opinion, are the most common outlets of Russian propaganda?
Bought or individually manipulated small content creators, in other words, astroturf. Believe it or not the FSB actually arrived in the 21st century and they know that the likes of RT are too on the nose to have wide-spread impact.
Also, targeted media amplification, like that Maersheimer video which suddenly went viral (and, ironically, was then amplified by, of all people, tankies. Must not have gotten the party memo that (rightly) decried geostrategic realism as imperialist apologia)
You're saying that small astroturfed internet personalities are the Russian Federation's primary means of legitmizing it's interests in the public eye? Bigger than oligarch-owned news station and media empires?
Can you name some of these bought or individually manipulated small content creators?
First off, you said "common", and yes there's definitely more of those than big media empires. Secondly, when it comes to impact, yes, I'd also say that they're having a relatively larger impact. RT can't even operate over here the institutional stooge of Russia over here is the AfD. To a lesser degree, Die Linke but they managed to deadlock themselves into arcane pseudo-pacifism, "Oh Ukraine should be helped but we shouldn't send weapons because we're Germany", the ultimate old guard new guard compromise.
It's kinda hard I don't want to say names because a lot of them might also be useful idiots. Like at least half of the tankiesphere on youtube, I have no way to tell whether Hasan has been groomed by Russia or is simply being an idiot on his own accord. If you look at the post history of random accounts commenting with Russian lines on youtube they very much look like bots.
Another rather more prominent example would be Elon Musk. He's definitely been worked over by Russia. Merely getting cold feet over starlink is one thing, suddenly using language such as "Lenin's mistake" in relation to Ukraine is a dead give away of direct exposure to Russian brainwashing. As to the rest of the platforms I wouldn't really know I don't frequent those.
The pattern of influencing is well-documented, though. There's a reason that "Russian bot farm" is a term (one of the first things that Ukraine blew up in Moscow, btw).
By a Ukrainian Nazi army. Are you not aware of this? This is basic stuff you need to know before commenting.
Where do they get their tattoo inspirations from, Utkin?
What, the guy that Putin just killed? sounds like he has a better track record of killing Nazis than you give him credit for
I'm glad you asked
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