It's trendy these days to be anti colonialism, but as soon as you mention ireland all the support fizzles out. Fucks up with that? Most young people hate tories, hate british empire, etc etc, but then you say IRA and everyone gets scared. It's not even like my generation has an emotional attachment to it either - it's before our time

  • Awoo [she/her]
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    4 years ago

    Yes... And no. Nationalism in England is a hotmess and really isn't very attached to monarchy but to "being english". It isn't dogma so with the right circumstances you could decouple the monarchy and the notion of the english nation. The barriers are:

    1. People don't think the monarchy has any power.
    2. People don't dislike Elizabeth.
    3. People think the monarchy makes the country money.

    All of these you can attack but there's no appetite for it while Liz is still around. That will change when there's a male ruler. I believe that patriarchal attitudes make people feel like the queen is less of a "ruler" than they will feel when we have a king. There will be more discomfort to tap into over a male ruler than over a sweet old lady.

    Additionally, I would assume some part of the nationalist ideology involves the colonial nature of the UK and since were talking specially about the English, English supremacy.

    This is why the culmination of the true end of the British empire plays into this. Right now forces are underway to see Scotland leave the union followed by the part of Ireland that shouldn't be in it, Welsh independence has begun building now too. The splintering of the UK will force the English to finally forgo their colonial past and seek a new conception of English identity.

    I also have a notion that the social forces under way that have led to the loss of the empire aren't finished. The TRUE end of the British empire isn't the end British global power and the loss of its colonies, nor is it even the loss of the UK, the TRUE end of the empire is the end of the monarchy itself. The final eventual culmination of something that has been happening to the UK for the last couple hundred years.

    English nationalism can just as easily be turned into something good. The north of England is not a bad place, it has wonderful people and there is good class consciousness there where you could create proletarian-nationalism in the above conditions. Parts of the south too with their own identities (the Cornish) would also have proletarian-nationalism you can tap into.

    You're absolutely right that bourgeoise-nationalism exists among the English but in the dying stages of an empire you can redirect that into more positive proletarian-nationalism with the help of the 20-30% or so socialist base that currently exists.

      • Awoo [she/her]
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        4 years ago

        Welsh movement is building through: https://www.yes.cymru/

        The Irish movement is a continuation of the struggle of the IRA and Sinn Fein. They'll get there eventually when something occurs to split the unionists. The left has made massive gains in NI and the momentum continues to be towards reunification. Unionists hold about 42% of the vote and Reunification parties (Sinn Fein and SDLP) hold about 38%, the remaining parties are "neutral" on the union.

        It was still slowing moving more and more towards independence over time but Brexit really kicked it into high gear. It accelerated all the existing independence movements and I would argue it created the Welsh one.

        Strongly recommend following Paul Morrin if you want to follow a good Irish comrade. Here's his video on nationalism and why it's good when it's the right type of nationalism .

      • Awoo [she/her]
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        4 years ago

        I would just say Republic of England. Easy enough to turn English self determination into proletarian-nationalism. The energy is there it just requires the right conditions. I'm not nearly as pessimistic about the English as others here, they're rough around the edges and they're a mess of colonial mindsets but a conversation with the average English working class that supports Brexit doesn't reveal a complete monster. It mostly reveals someone that's rather ignorant about a lot of social issues, gets misled by the right wing on those issues but honestly has a "I don't care what anyone does to be honest as long as it doesn't affect me" attitude and really isn't loyal to reactionary mindsets. They aren't people that will go to war over anything.

        The only thing I truly think is necessary to detach those people from the right wing is to properly attach the wealthy and the right wing mediasphere that is mis-directing them into reactionary thought on issues.

        Yes we've got our tommy robinson types but they're not a large crowd and the people that supported Brexit aren't loyal followers of unhinged right wing beliefs. I'd say there's only a 2-5% crowd of true believers, the rest or misguided and simply rough proletarians that can be realigned if we cut the umbilical cord feeding them shit. They don't even really believe what they're being fed by the right wing machine, they just have a defensive wall up because they've heard that trans people are dangerous weirdos or that immigrants want their jobs or whatever. They actually don't give a fuck what trans people or anything else do as long as they're left alone -- it's entirely the fact that the right wing is feeding them stuff that they even have any concerns about it, and their only concern is "stay out of my life". I believe they're all, deep down, "I just want to grill" types who have a constant trickle of shite scaring them.