EDIT: no, I don't sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they're losing an argument ;)
EDIT: no, I don't sympathize with nazis (neither I sympathize with those who call everyone nazi when they're losing an argument ;)
Celebrating an increase in life expectancy from 30 to 40 years old is not remotely the win you think it is.
I'm celebrating the increase in life expectancy from 35 to higher than that of the US, actually, which is the win I think it is.
The point is not the immediate increase in that specific 5 year period, the point is the clear trend of rapid, long term increases after a long period of stagnation, with the pivitol turning point being exactly when the CPC came to power. You're supposed to look at the whole graph.
China never manipulates data coming out of their authoritarian country so good thing we can trust it. I'm sure their life expectancy is great with all their industrial pollution that regularly causes smog in their inner cities.
Here is my source do you have a source that disputes that? Or is your belief based entirely on unfalsifiable faith?
Also curious if you think Chinese life expectancy is still like 35 or what lmao
You may also be interested in what the World Bank, that infamous communist propaganda rag, has to say:
No one in China is over 50. If you're over 50 in China they just shoot you, and then they lie and say they didn't.
I would expect you to understand unless you've read theory.
What theory would that be, lol?
Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand. In Fountainhead, she goes in depth about how Chinese life expectancy statistics are generally made up.
That's incredible, I honestly did not see that one coming.
So tell me, what's your best guess at what Chinese life expectancy was before the CPC came to power, and what do you think it is now? Do you dispute the numbers from before the communists were even in power? Or do you think they're still living in mud huts?
The Fountainhead is a novel about an American architect that has nothing to do with China. They're doing a weird bit, presumably about how evil tankies asking them to read books is cheating.
Yeah I got that, at least after they posted a rickroll. Guess being an idiot is a defense mechanism when they realized they had nothing.
Communism increasing life expectancy!?
Shanghai Stock Exchange: http://english.sse.com.cn/
Beijing Stock Exchange: www.bse.cn
Shenzhen Stock Exchange: https://www.szse.cn/English/index.html
That's more stock exchanges than the US, comrade!
Oh, so you consider Deng's reforms to be right-deviationist? Are you a Maoist, then?
Whether you consider the CPC to be communist or not, the fact still remains that they've made a lot of improvements in the lives of the average Chinese person.
Deng was alive and well when two of those stock exchanges were opened and the whole argument was "look at the improvements only possible under Communism".
How do you say "moving the goalposts" in Mandarin? Actually, no need to answer as you are all
suburbanpetit bourgeois kids from the US.That's... what I said? Obviously, Deng was the one who implemented economic reforms, such as opening stock exchanges and allowing foreign investment. Some Maoists consider this to be right-deviationist and counter-revolutionary, and that he should've continued more in line with Mao's policies. That's why I asked if you're a Maoist, since you consider his reforms incompatible with socialism.
I'm not sure who's whole argument was "look at the improvements only possible under Communism." China's conditions were much worse off than places like the US, so obviously it's possible to improve conditions to be better than per-revolutionary China (which is not saying much) without communism. It's just that in China's case, it was the communists that did it.
Mao died in 1976, which is where that life expectancy graph is somewhere in the mid 50s. Super impressive.
Over 60, actually. I think that doubling live expectancy over a single generation is, in fact, pretty impressive.
So I take it you're not a Maoist or a Dengist. Can you tell me who you think should've been in power in China instead? The KMT? You can see how much they did on the graph, if you don't find the CPC's numbers impressive then I'm sure you'd hate them even more. The invading Japanese perhaps? The European colonizers? Or maybe you think the Qing dynasty should never have been overthrown.
Correlation or causation? You know that industrialization increases life expectancy, right?
It's not hard to double your life expectancy when you're starting out with the same life expectancy that existed in the Roman Empire almost 2,000 years prior. Thanks, Mao!
Of course I know that, did you not read what I said?
"China's conditions were much worse off than places like the US, so obviously it's possible to improve conditions to be better than per-revolutionary China (which is not saying much) without communism."
It really is wild that no other faction was willing to do anything that would increase Chinese life expectancy above that of the Roman Empire, yes. I agree, thanks, Mao!
It's pretty funny that you criticize Deng for implenting economic reforms that led to further industrialization, while also crediting the rise in life expectancy to that very same industrialization.
What even is your ideology? And can you answer my question about who should've come to power instead of the communists?
So you agree it has nothing to do with communism and you're just trolling around the internet. Got it.
I have no idea what thought process led you to post that but ok.
There were a lot of really simple, basic improvements that the peasants in China desperately needed. Anybody could've done what was needed, but nobody else was willing to, because nobody else cared. There was no special technical economic policy that uplifted them, it was just a willingness to address their needs that no other faction possessed.
The entire point of this brilliant thread is that communism, not individuals, lifted people out of poverty. Numerous economic systems have high life expectancy (socialist, capitalist, etc) and the common denominator is basically just industrialization.
Who would have thought the ability to make nation-state quantities of medication extends lives?
That's all you fam, I never said anything like that. All I did was point to graph and say I liked it when people do things (and political projects) that make life expectancy skyrocket. You seem to have read a bunch of stuff into that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
I'm assuming you equally support all those capitalist countries that have high life expectancies.
Samsung KoreaI mean South Korea with it's life expectancy of 84 years is generally considered a great society on Hexbear, no?Life expectancy doesn't always give the whole picture. For example, in my graph, there are times where China's life expectancy is rising very rapidly, but it was still considerably lower than that of other countries. It's necessary to analyze what policies lead to what results and what the reasons are for the success or failure of a given political project or policy.
I haven't studied South Korea's policies and material conditions closely enough to offer much of an informed analysis, as the world is a very big place. You could always make a thread about it on c/askchapo or something.
Could have saved us a lot of time, going all the way back to the post where you used life expectancy to try to paint a whole picture.
Just because it doesn't paint the full picture doesn't mean it isn't important. The data in this case shows some very clear conclusions.
Sometimes I try to post more in depth theory, the last time I tried that, everyone complained that it was TLDR.
I mean this genuinely - It seems like you're one of the more reasonable Hexbear users, just for saying this alone:
Intelligence is always knowing where your current knowledge ends. I don't have all the answers to everything either and it's easier to engage in discussion when both participants know their limitations, which is the bare minimum required for a good faith discussion. Virtually all other Hexbear users double down and go on the offensive when they are hit with something they don't know about, which is why I've developed a particular disdain for users from your instance and refrain from substantial engagement because it always devolves into sealioning. The only way I have found to engage with users from your instance is reflexively using their own debate strategies otherwise I'm constantly told I "don't know anything unless I've read insert-book-of-the-week".
I used South Korea because it's pretty much worse than the US in every regard. My joke, "Samsung Korea", wasn't an ignorant American's take thinking all they make are cell phones, rather, Samsung is basically at the top of their oligarchy and has more control over their government than US corporations, believe it or not. South Korea has one of the best life expectancies, but is one of the worse examples of capitalism.
I think your problem is that you jump to conclusions too quickly. I think you'll have better luck with Hexbears if you slow down and make sure you actually understand what our point is instead of just trying to win before you have a clear picture of what the other person's position is.
Oh well, double down I guess. A prominant Hexbear community is called "Dunking On Libs", which, as we both know, is going to other instances where they engage in "jumping to conclusions" and "just trying to win".
You almost had self awareness. Almost.
I'll leave you with what I wrote in my last post:
I can't speak for every user on my instance (nor can you for yours), but I can say that many of us also respond in kind to what we get. When you tried to dunk on me, you got PPB'd. You'll get the same if you lob baseless accusations (like calling us "the QAnon of the left") or confidently assert bad, uninformed takes.
You can laugh, but communist oppression is no laughing matter. Please see this article where Ben Shapiro writes a thesis-level takedown of the mythos of Chinese life expectancy.
Please, I've read that article countless times. Here is a response that breaks down all the flaws in his argument.
No don't bother linking your dumb policies that you guys never abide by.
I'm merely acting reflexively to the behaviors I constantly observe from Hexbear users.
We always abide by the PPB, tyvm!
No, but whenever you guys get "dunked on", you compulsively link to it like a goddamned Manchurian candidate.
I'm just gonna say, if you're still posting rickrolls in 2023, you don't have a lot of room to talk about unoriginal bits.
Ok boomer.
Man, you really didn't like being wrong, huh.
It's impossible to engage in good faith debates with what is essentially the QAnon of the left.
QAnon, well known for being able to provide evidence for their beliefs from credible sources.
Aren't you the one that's more like QAnon, since you're going purely off vibes and faith?
"no, u"
I haven't seen that movie, does a pig shit on its own balls?
Serious question - is that normal for pigs or is something wrong with it?
I believe that's normal for breeding hogs, yes
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Lmao
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You just didn't bother clicking that Benny Shaps link, did ya?
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/dQw4w9WgXcQ?si=KTi-2uYeRb6E8_cS
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
good bit
My god he can't read a graph. How has our educational system been allowed to fail for this long?
I'm not committed at all to China as the salvation of the communist project, but it's exactly this sort of self-imposed illiteracy and ignorance, and nearly religious faith in the inferiority and duplicity of The Orient that makes me default to distrusting anything negative a cracker says about it.
Comrade, I also blindly trust any graph as dear leader would have it.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Trump_holding_altered_Dorian_forecast_map.png/800px-Trump_holding_altered_Dorian_forecast_map.png
let's skip to the end of the discussion: I say "that's not anything like what I said." you say "yes but you believe those statistics are true???" I say "do you have any good evidence that they're fabricated, and that the life expectancy in China is actually still hovering around 40?" you beg the question, possibly implying that Chinese people are inherently untrustworthy, and accuse me of supporting genocide. There is nothing I can say to you that will instill an ounce of critical thinking ability in you.
I mean all Hexbear links are essentially the Pravda. It doesn't help when you guys treat Wikipedia like it's somehow the same as conservapedia.com
I don't think census data compiled and verified by the UN DESA is Pravda, a publication which does not exist anymore. I quite like Wikipedia and I think it's a very good way to get a quick introductory understanding of a topic which you've just learned about. In this case it prints a similar graph citing the same data, so I don't know why you would mention it to support your strange argument that China's life expectancy has not significantly improved under communism.
It's not even that outrageous a thing to believe, but you demand that I presume it false because believing that China is a normal country opens the door to believing a whole bunch of other scary things.
Why are you pretending like China is communist when they have several stock exchanges? Is that where you exchange MarxBux?
Shanghai Stock Exchange: http://english.sse.com.cn/
Beijing Stock Exchange: www.bse.cn
Shenzhen Stock Exchange: https://www.szse.cn/English/index.html
That's more stock exchanges than the US, comrade!
I don't really care whether or not China is communist, or if other people think it's communist for various esoteric reasons. It doesn't effect me either way. State Department propaganda and warmongering does effect me though.
Of course you don't care if it is communist. Communism was never the point. Mask comes off that you guys are just authoritarians masquerading as glorious revolutionaries.
No, I'm not Chinese. China is not important to my politics at all. That's like the first thing I said if you scroll up.
All of Hexbear is suburban US kids so of course I knew you didn't live in any of these glorious peoples republics.