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  • JoeySteel [comrade/them]
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    4 years ago

    Capital wants Biden

    It wants a retrenched empire for the cosmopolitan bourgeoisie whereas Trump represents the local booj. They seem him as a liability

    However if Trumps coup gains traction they will switch quite quickly to supporting Trump because if Trump absolutely hunkers down they won't want Biden pushing "too far" to discredit bourgeois democracy

    In all honesty I'm excited :sicko-yes:

    • DasKarlBarx [he/him,comrade/them]
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      4 years ago

      Yeah can't wait for people to die over which braindead boomer oversees the last days of the worlds largest pyramid scheme. Real exciting.

      • JoeySteel [comrade/them]
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        4 years ago

        Revolution ain't a tea party

        Under Heaven there is chaos - the situation is perfect

        Revolutions are the locomotive of history

        The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains

        You cannot make a revolution in white gloves

        etc. etc. ad infinitum

        And honestly, if you end up dying for either Biden or Trump who cares

        • DasKarlBarx [he/him,comrade/them]
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          4 years ago

          This isn't a revolution, there will be no change in who holds power in the United States over this.

          You can keyboard warrior all you want, and quote whatever revolutionaries you want while you're checking your phone on the toilet but even though you may not be actual people are affected by this.

          And honestly, if you end up dying for either Biden or Trump who cares

          Yeah who cares about innocent people caught in the crossfire. Fuck them, right?

          • JoeySteel [comrade/them]
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            4 years ago

            Yeah who cares about innocent people caught in the crossfire. Fuck them, right?

            If they're democrats or republicans why do I care?

            They've cheered for the slaughter of peoples across the entire globe and in the case of Dems wouldn't even promise to give people healthcare during a pandemic

            Fuck them, right?

            Yes.

            • Bedandsofa [he/him]
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              4 years ago

              Edgy.

              If they’re democrats or republicans why do I care?

              150 million people voted for either the Dems or Republicans in the last election. A majority of the adult population of the United States. If you want to be a communist in any sense other than internet posturing, a big chunk of that number is the working class you need to engage with politically.

              The Democratic and Republican parties, as state-aligned political vehicles, are not interchangeable with the millions of people who vote for them because they are effectively the only two options available in bourgeois elections in the US. They aren't even parties in the sense that membership is available, and it's not like voters' preferences actually determine the vast majority of what those parties do when in power (case in point: healthcare).

              • JoeySteel [comrade/them]
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                4 years ago

                150 million people voted for either the Dems or Republicans in the last election. A majority of the adult population of the United States. If you want to be a communist in any sense other than internet posturing, a big chunk of that number is the working class you need to engage with politically.

                150 million members of the labour aristocracy that have long ago decided that their material wealth is tied to US imperialism which manifests (far outside the realm of political parties) in putting dead animals on the porch of the soldier that stopped My Lai massacre in the Vietnam invasion (while decorating the soldiers that did it) right up to telling half the population their "unamerican" for protesting the Empires Wars

                Edgy.

                You can call it edgy all you like but if you ever pointed out to the majority of Americans how the US has turned the rest of the world into a slave labour camp to satisfy they're endless material greed they're general sentiment is "sucks to be them".

                If you or me were ever to point out to the average American that 12 million Russians died during the 1990s of capitalist restoration helped on by the US - do you think the average American would respond with empathy?

                Or do you think they'd respond with "sucks to suck"

                No, then why should I?

                Do I think the US empire can ever decline in such a nature to avoid a catastrophe like what the Russians went through?

                No - then, sucks to suck

                If you want to be a communist in any sense other than internet posturing, a big chunk of that number is the working class you need to engage with politically.

                Not american so sucks to suck. And even if I was I'd accept that my role as a communist in America is to bring the Empire to its knees - not organise for higher wages on the Death Star

                • Bedandsofa [he/him]
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                  4 years ago

                  To bring the empire to its knees is going to require a massive organized force, like say the US working class organized in its own class interest.

                  Your analysis of imperialism and labor aristocracy is absolute trash. Is the astronomical wealth generated by US capitalism flowing into the hands of the more than 40% of Americans who can't afford a $400 emergency expense? Does it lie with the 1/4 American households that have faced food insecurity in 2020? The objective majority of American workers who live paycheck to paycheck?

                  Or has it been reaped by the capitalists, the class whose interests give rise to imperialism and who own the apparatuses of imperialism and who pocket the profits of international capitalist exploitation?

                  You bullshit your way into the idea of a 150 million person "labor aristocracy," obscuring class divisions during what is probably the most intense period of class differentiation in US history: the period after the postwar boom where living standards for the US working class is declining, while the capitalists hoard wealth in historic quantities.

                  Are you so terminally online and disconnected that you think most working class Americans celebrate the My Lai massacre, or even know what that was?

                  If you or me were ever to point out to the average American that 12 million Russians died during the 1990s of capitalist restoration helped on by the US - do you think the average American would respond with empathy?

                  Yea I'm pretty sure I could get quite a few empathetic responses from pointing that out. I'm a trot, so I literally and routinely have friendly conversations about socialism with strangers on the street and at protests, and it helps that more than 50% of people under the age of 30 in the US are sympathetic to socialism. Being that you're not from the US, did you miss that 25 million people protested against racism and police brutality in the US this summer? Quite a few of those people are looking for a way out of a racist capitalist status quo.

                  You on the other hand, hold American workers responsible for the crimes of their ruling class in a way that 1) is bullshit, not grounded in conditions or consciousness as they actually exist, and 2) isn't going to win anyone to your position. So I can see how you might struggle to build a connection.

                  not organise for higher wages on the Death Star

                  Yikes. In retrospect, I'd actually like to see you explain to folks who are legitimately struggling to provide a comfortable life for themselves and their families that, by virtue of being born in the US, they work on a project equivalent to the death star and do not deserve basic improvements to their quality of life.

                  • Nuttula [comrade/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    You bullshit your way into the idea of a 150 million person “labor aristocracy,” obscuring class divisions during what is probably the most intense period of class differentiation in US history: the period after the postwar boom where living standards for the US working class is declining, while the capitalists hoard wealth in historic quantities.

                    Your argument here is not an answer both things are true from a Marxist perspective.

                    There is a labor aristocracy in the west compared to the rest of the world, while simultaneously it doesn't mean the person lining up to get their food stamps are part of the PMC or aren't exploited workers. Yes America is a heavily class divided country, but on a relative analysis America is also the imperial core profiting heavily from it. Nobody is "obscuring" anything by pointing out exactly who and where the imperial core is. At the same time nobody(at least nobody arguing in good faith) is "blaming" the American worker for simply being born there and benefiting from it. Yet it seems pointing this out is an incredible offense...

                    In general Americans do enjoy benefits from imperialism and this is a very important part to understanding their material interests, Sanders voters want healthcare but you aren't going to convince them we should be building hospitals in Africa first, Sanders himself is a disgraced imperialist and that is the farthest left you got for over 50 years or whatever, the most you'll get is some non-answer like "we can do both(just don't ask with what money and who is going there). In general the American "left" just wants to redistribute the share of the spoils of imperialism, which to them is just reduced to something something big corporations and billionaires blah blah. There is no understanding that the majority of these profits come from direct foreign operations or rely heavily upon it.

                    You on the other hand, hold American workers responsible for the crimes of their ruling class in a way that 1) is bullshit, not grounded in conditions or consciousness as they actually exist, and 2) isn’t going to win anyone to your position. So I can see how you might struggle to build a connection.

                    The thing is people on this community don't always want to hear the hard truths about what a revolution means, I am not American so my view is certainly biased, however from a global perspective we shouldn't blame ourselves or our ideology for the results of the absolute destructive mentality of capitalism. The harsh response to his point of view is proof of this. Everyone here memes about revolution and change and death to Amerikka and all that but the moment someone seriously defends civil war or balkanization regardless of the consequences then he is being petty or cruel.

                    Alas just arguing that there will be innocents who suffer is a meaningless construct, who is innocent, from what perspective and based on what metric? A revolution is an explicit statement of the end justify the means and if you don't accept this premise then you are not realy ready to fight for it, or any sort of meaningful change realy. You'll always be at the mercy of the fascists who threaten you with killing innocent children or woman or worse, "Capitalism/America is too big to fail".

                    Ultimately if there is Balkanization or anything like it will be because at every single step of the way, both the American population and the capitalist ruling class have taken steps(sometimes very wrong steps) towards it. It is not the socialists/communists fault for realizing this and planning for this and ultimately unironically supporting it.

                    Our task is to use the opportunity towards our own goals not to be a nanny of the fascist capitalist state trying to stop it from destroying itself. Our duty is to the masses and ensuring we can make the least amount of people suffer while working towards our goal. If at some point you replace the goal with just being scared of the consequences then you already lost.

                  • JoeySteel [comrade/them]
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                    4 years ago

                    Your analysis of imperialism and labor aristocracy is absolute trash.

                    No it's not. Even the least class conscious American understands at a material level (though they may not be able to put it into marxist terminology) that they benefit from US imperialism and extending US tentacles worldwide. It's why when US goes to war it does so with an outright majority (50%+) against whatever country the US declares the new enemy.

                    Yea I’m pretty sure I could get quite a few empathetic responses from pointing that out. I’m a trot, so I literally and routinely have friendly conversations about socialism with strangers on the street and at protests, and it helps that more than 50% of people under the age of 30 in the US are sympathetic to socialism. Being that you’re not from the US, did you miss that 25 million people protested against racism and police brutality in the US this summer? Quite a few of those people are looking for a way out of a racist capitalist status quo.

                    The BLM movement represents Social fascism as outlined by Stalin - ie. Social-democracy as the twin pillar of fascism. The BLM movement under this context is an oppressed group seeking to enter the Labour Aristocracy. There is zero internationalism in this movement

                    Firstly, it is not true that fascism is only the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. Fascism is not only a military-technical category. Fascism is the bourgeoisie’s fighting organisation that relies on the active support of Social-Democracy. Social-Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of fascism. There is no ground for assuming that the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of Social-Democracy. There is just as little ground for thinking that Social-Democracy can achieve decisive successes in battles, or in governing the country, without the active support of the fighting organisation of the bourgeoisie. These organisations do not negate, but supplement each other. They are not antipodes, they are twins. Fascism is an informal political bloc of these two chief organisations; a bloc, which arose in the circumstances of the post-war crisis of imperialism, and which is intended for combating the proletarian revolution. The bourgeoisie cannot retain power without such a bloc. It would therefore be a mistake to think that “pacifism” signifies the liquidation of fascism. In the present situation, “pacifism” is the strengthening of fascism with its moderate, Social-Democratic wing pushed into the forefront. - Stalin, https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1924/09/20.htm

                    Black Lives Matter indeed but nothing is said about the 27 million Yemenese that are starving due to US blockade or the slave markets in Libya due to US foreign policy. Ad inifiitum for the entire continent of Africa. BLM is not a revolutionary movement but a liberal movement seeking a greater share of the imperial pie

                    Are you so terminally online and disconnected that you think most working class Americans celebrate the My Lai massacre, or even know what that was?

                    I gave one example of how the American public treats both war criminals and those who stop war crimes.

                    I can name a million others though...How about Chris Kyle celebrated in American Sniper?

                    I’m a trot

                    So we don't have to worry about socialist revolution anytime soon then eh? (Just kidding!)

                    Yikes. In retrospect, I’d actually like to see you explain to folks who are legitimately struggling to provide a comfortable life for themselves and their families that, by virtue of being born in the US, they work on a project equivalent to the death star and do not deserve basic improvements to their quality of life.

                    People say abolish the police because the US police is very similar (though not on scale) as the SS. You can't work in the SS and make the SS more of a "public good". It needed to be abolished.

                    US needs to be abolished. I didn't even think this was that controversial a point on this site.

            • DasKarlBarx [he/him,comrade/them]
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              4 years ago

              You realize it's going to be more than just Democrats and Republicans who get caught up in this, right? This isn't a movie where only those involved in the storyline get hurt.

              • JoeySteel [comrade/them]
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                4 years ago

                And do you realise when we post a flag of US on fire its not to be an edgelord?

                I wish balkanisation process could be peaceful (which is more than what USians gave Yugoslavia, iraq syria libya)

                Unfortunately it could never be peaceful - doesnt mean i dont still want US to balkanise

                • DasKarlBarx [he/him,comrade/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  And do you realise when we post a flag of US on fire its not to be an edgelord?

                  Then I hope you're out doing something about it, putting your own life on the line. Because otherwise that's all you are.

        • Libleaningleft [none/use name]
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          4 years ago

          Hey dude, Foucault might have been on some lib shit but he was right that power and the state just reassert themselves. I don't think he's doing a coup. He's not that invested and he's need media to get on board with capital to back him.

    • Pezevenk [he/him]
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      4 years ago

      Jesus Christ stop with the terrible analysis, when will you people learn?

    • anthm17 [he/him]
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      4 years ago

      Capital wants Biden.

      Trump sends in a team of marines to beat a single digit billionaire to death.

      Capital is fine with Trump.

      • anthm17 [he/him]
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        4 years ago

        Oh what's that the most self serving of capitalists is going to exhibit class loyalty when he has an advantage?

        Oh well I guess I'm wrong then.

    • NeoJuliette [she/her,comrade/them]
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      4 years ago

      You are surprised to find me so calm in the midst of crime? Let me then say a few words apropos. I fain would have you become as apathetic as I—and I think you soon shall. I noticed yesterday that you were struck, even startled, by my equanimity in the thick of the horrors we were committing and I seem to remember that you accused me of lacking pity for the men our debauchery sacrificed.

      Oh, Juliette, banish all doubt thereof: Nature has arranged everything, informed everything, hers is the responsibility for all you see and all there is. Has she given equal strength, equal beauty, equal grace to all the creatures wrought by her hand? Of course not. Since she desires that each particular thing or constitution have its particular contour or hue, so also she wills that fates and fortunes be not alike. The luckless ones chance puts in our clutches, or who excite our passions, have their place in Nature’s scheme as do the stars in the firmament and the sun that gives us light; and ’tis as certain an evil one commits in meddling with this wise economy as ’twould be were one to confound cosmic operations, were that crime within the scope of our possibilities…