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  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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    4 years ago

    keep attacking strawmen, that will surely create a global anti-work "zone" where prosperity flows from dry streambeds & progress is achieved without trying/failing

    • autismdragon [he/him, they/them]
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      4 years ago

      Like I'm mostly with you here but you doing this "antiwork" dig is uncomfortable for me because like, there are ableist implications to that that I really don't like. I'm "antiwork" because working as an autistic person has basically already drained me of the will to do any work again. And I'd hope that employment under a modern socialist system would be so fundamentally different that it wouldn't be "work" anymore. The fact that many abled/NT MLs don't seem to have a will to establish such a thing is probably my biggest issue with them. For me to believe that ML socialism would make a world that would like, actually be better for me in a fundamental way, I have to believe that employment under their system wouldn't be anything like it is under capitalism. Because sitting on my ass for three years contributing nothing doesn't make me happy either, but I'm too drained and traumatized by past experiences to go back to work.

      • volkvulture [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        socially necessary labor has to be done, & not only complained about. though I agree that work as it's conceived & carried out in present day capacities is beleaguering & tortuous. the key point is what the society values after that socially necessary labor is completed. Marx argues for a reduction of the working day and increases in free time

        work must be defeated... which, in typical dialectical fashion, is a telos that actually requires real concerted work to achieve

        human existence is itself labor & human beings require material resources & energy inputs & social structure in order mature & reproduce themselves.

        disabled people & orphans & all those unable to work must be supported by those who do. nothing can change this

        wishing for AI or FALGSC isn't the same as building them

                • autismdragon [he/him, they/them]
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                  4 years ago

                  Haven't read up on it, but the fact that Marx himself said that "work" is "alienated labor" seems to play into it. Which basically falls in line with what I was saying about post-capitalist labor shouldn't be work anymore.

                  • volkvulture [none/use name]
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                    4 years ago

                    so you adhere to and identify with "anti-work" "theory" even though you haven't read it?

                    and Marx didn't say "work" was "alienated labor", he said that private employment & accumulation of private property lead to that situation unnaturally in capitalism

                    "In creating a world of objects by his personal activity, in his work upon inorganic nature, man proves himself a conscious species-being, i.e., as a being that treats the species as his own essential being, or that treats itself as a species-being. Admittedly animals also produce. They build themselves nests, dwellings, like the bees, beavers, ants, etc. But an animal only produces what it immediately needs for itself or its young. It produces one-sidedly, whilst man produces universally. It produces only under the dominion of immediate physical need, whilst man produces even when he is free from physical need and only truly produces in freedom therefrom. An animal produces only itself, whilst man reproduces the whole of nature. An animal’s product belongs immediately to its physical body, whilst man freely confronts his product. An animal forms only in accordance with the standard and the need of the species to which it belongs, whilst man knows how to produce in accordance with the standard of every species, and knows how to apply everywhere the inherent standard to the object. Man therefore also forms objects in accordance with the laws of beauty.

                    It is just in his work upon the objective world, therefore, that man really proves himself to be a species-being. This production is his active species-life. Through this production, nature appears as his work and his reality. The object of labor is, therefore, the objectification of man’s species-life: for he duplicates himself not only, as in consciousness, intellectually, but also actively, in reality, and therefore he sees himself in a world that he has created. In tearing away from man the object of his production, therefore, estranged labor tears from him his species-life, his real objectivity as a member of the species and transforms his advantage over animals into the disadvantage that his inorganic body, nature, is taken from him."

                    Marx says that private employment in which the exploited laborer produces objects belonging in every way to someone else is the "species-being" obscured & corrupted.

                    But man's natural state is to act upon the natural world & sustain oneself and larger society upon that action. The intervening alienation of private ownership & class division & labor division into a large "hyperexploited" subaltern & small non-working bourgeois hedonists is the contradiction Marx strains to point out

                    Capitalist leeches believe in not working too... at least they believe in retaining the privilege of not working for themselves lol

      • volkvulture [none/use name]
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        4 years ago

        work is service

        but organized work doesn't have to be exploitative if it's directed from within & organized in a concerted way within larger systems of social relations

          • volkvulture [none/use name]
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            4 years ago

            or by workers & cadres... as was done in USSR & PRC and elsewhere

            artels existed in USSR, and largely managed their own affairs/production

            you just think reading/parroting anti-communist Western imperialist propaganda/false history means you're warning others about something, but you're the one who needs to dip back into studies on these matters.

            the history you've received is falsified & propagandized against ML states.

            capitalism and imperialism & white male supremacy all work in tandem. cultural hegemony & historical revision prevent you from functionally drilling down here and receiving any wisdom from history

            the way you're waving off Marxism & ML states heavily indicates that your politics align with ancap nonsense. Any superficial "leftist" aesthetic interests are merely that

            Lenin & Marx all wanted an eventual "withering away of the state", but such a thing must be achieved & not merely hoped for

            • socialist [she/her]
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              4 years ago

              Still it all comes to the corrupt state bureaucracy and the state falling or could it be (((Them))) behind it all