ignoring 20th century history and glossing over the achievements (or focusing solely on the contradictions/miscalculations) of former & existing ML projects is also fallacious & divorces the putative future of socialism from its very real & important past insights
and I would say that if you feel that way about Soviet history in the aggregate, then you are buying biased Western historiography & anti-communist propaganda
Stalin & Lenin didn't accomplish everything for the Soviet Union, the Soviet people did. The same is true of Mao & the people of PRC. I do not buy Great Man theory for a second, this is a bourgeois tendency &is intellectually bound up in capitalist/idealist notions.
Demonizing the past and looking for ways to skirt around the very real obstacles that previous ML & socialist projects contended with is a recipe for proceeding in a pointless & doomed manner
i agree great man theory is garbage, which is why the achievements of the Soviet & PRC & Vietnamese & Burkinabe & Cuban and other people were not the achievements of a few "important" individuals
okay, but I just told you that ML projects are not based on the spurious bourgeois misrepresentations of economic/cultural historiography
You said "Fine", so if you can believe that ML projects depended on millions of unnamed & devoted people rather than a few "charismatic leaders", then you admit that Great Man theory doesn't relate to socialist history hardly at all
so please, I would beg you stop projecting your own beliefs about history onto others.
Mao and Stalin & Castro did not achieve everything alone, but historiography in the West is geared in this way. Almost anything we read is steeped in these false ideological conventions regardless, just by nature of being written in the capitalist West
you just said multiple times that too many arguments promoting ML states are "run through" and unacceptably based on Great Man theory, but then failed to point out how this was the case whether anecdotally or with examples or in any statistical fashion
this isn't personal... and socialism isn't based on personality disputes lol.
again, we are getting bogged down in trying to map our biased and often subconscious Western heuristics onto 20th century anti-capitalist/anti-imperialist realities
one thread's UI being broken wouldn't prevent you from demonstrating your position in any numerous other threads here or elsewhere online.
even by recounting some previous situation in moderate detail where you encountered fallacious Great Man theorizing about ML states would lend credence to this trend of others poisoning the online socialist discussion well
I think this is more about your own personal views on ML states & anti-imperialism rather than any general tendency you've noticed in others
i just don't see how pointing out when others might be taking inspiration from ML leaders means anything negative about socialism or moves the meter at all here
you keep responding. so I think you do want to argue, but you're just refusing to do so on the merits concerning how you think others support socialist projects of the past too much
I don't think this is personal at all, and do not remember the particulars of our last exchange
no, I've only referred to what you've said and done so directly.
if you think it's abusive to be gently called out when you've misspoken on matters related to leftist discussion, then idk what to say about this back&forth at all lol.
if you have some direct criticism on the facts or content of what I've said, please correct me
literally this whole spat regards what you think other people say & how your personal impression constitutes some indisputable overall tendency in all online socialist discussions, which I disagree with completely. you're still projecting
you don't care what I think, but you keep responding & referring to some personal past between us without making any of your own thoughts clear
you are the one who said that discussions of socialist projects are corrupted & muddled by "Great Man" theory, and I only want you to point out for me where & how & why this is true.
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USSR is one of the best things to happen in human history
so unless you're trying to equate "socialism" with the re-establishment of God's paradisaical kingdom on Earth, then I do not see your point
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ignoring 20th century history and glossing over the achievements (or focusing solely on the contradictions/miscalculations) of former & existing ML projects is also fallacious & divorces the putative future of socialism from its very real & important past insights
sorry this is wrong
and I would say that if you feel that way about Soviet history in the aggregate, then you are buying biased Western historiography & anti-communist propaganda
Stalin & Lenin didn't accomplish everything for the Soviet Union, the Soviet people did. The same is true of Mao & the people of PRC. I do not buy Great Man theory for a second, this is a bourgeois tendency &is intellectually bound up in capitalist/idealist notions.
Demonizing the past and looking for ways to skirt around the very real obstacles that previous ML & socialist projects contended with is a recipe for proceeding in a pointless & doomed manner
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i agree great man theory is garbage, which is why the achievements of the Soviet & PRC & Vietnamese & Burkinabe & Cuban and other people were not the achievements of a few "important" individuals
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i hope you can see how you're making a straw man argument here against me tho
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to your implication or suggestion that I am making a Great Man argument for ML projects, bc I am not
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okay, but I just told you that ML projects are not based on the spurious bourgeois misrepresentations of economic/cultural historiography
You said "Fine", so if you can believe that ML projects depended on millions of unnamed & devoted people rather than a few "charismatic leaders", then you admit that Great Man theory doesn't relate to socialist history hardly at all
so please, I would beg you stop projecting your own beliefs about history onto others.
Mao and Stalin & Castro did not achieve everything alone, but historiography in the West is geared in this way. Almost anything we read is steeped in these false ideological conventions regardless, just by nature of being written in the capitalist West
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you just said multiple times that too many arguments promoting ML states are "run through" and unacceptably based on Great Man theory, but then failed to point out how this was the case whether anecdotally or with examples or in any statistical fashion
this isn't personal... and socialism isn't based on personality disputes lol.
again, we are getting bogged down in trying to map our biased and often subconscious Western heuristics onto 20th century anti-capitalist/anti-imperialist realities
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one thread's UI being broken wouldn't prevent you from demonstrating your position in any numerous other threads here or elsewhere online.
even by recounting some previous situation in moderate detail where you encountered fallacious Great Man theorizing about ML states would lend credence to this trend of others poisoning the online socialist discussion well
I think this is more about your own personal views on ML states & anti-imperialism rather than any general tendency you've noticed in others
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i just don't see how pointing out when others might be taking inspiration from ML leaders means anything negative about socialism or moves the meter at all here
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about what?
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you keep responding. so I think you do want to argue, but you're just refusing to do so on the merits concerning how you think others support socialist projects of the past too much
I don't think this is personal at all, and do not remember the particulars of our last exchange
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no, I've only referred to what you've said and done so directly.
if you think it's abusive to be gently called out when you've misspoken on matters related to leftist discussion, then idk what to say about this back&forth at all lol.
if you have some direct criticism on the facts or content of what I've said, please correct me
literally this whole spat regards what you think other people say & how your personal impression constitutes some indisputable overall tendency in all online socialist discussions, which I disagree with completely. you're still projecting
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I promise you this isn't personal, no matter how much you strain to drag it down to that level
I've only asked you clear up these questions I've raised in good faith about your "observations" of ML supporters
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you don't care what I think, but you keep responding & referring to some personal past between us without making any of your own thoughts clear
you are the one who said that discussions of socialist projects are corrupted & muddled by "Great Man" theory, and I only want you to point out for me where & how & why this is true.
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okay