This is why I'm an anti-natalist. More or less. This and the fact that the Earth is pretty fucked and maybe we shouldn't bring children into this world to suffer outright like we all acknowledge they will.
But if they never exist, then there isn't actually a recipient of that benefit/someone saved from suffering. :thinky-felix:
Edit: what I do understand is the sense that increasing one's responsibility to another life/lives as the world deteriorates may cause oneself more suffering as opposed to sticking with their current number of connections and responsibilities. A child can be a liability in hard times; that's undeniable. But again, that's really a personal choice, not a choice for another person
But if they never exist, then there isn’t actually a recipient of that benefit/someone saved from suffering.
That's the point, though ? you're not adding a conscious being that would've suffered had you done so. There is thus objectively less suffering in the world as a result.
That's getting on more philosophical questions where I feel I'm less informed / knowledgeable to answer; perhaps you're right and there is joy to be had in a world of resources wars, mass migrations the like of which the species has never seen, lack of food and water, potential nuclear exchanges, and wholesale misery.
There might even be. I'll just wrap this up with a rare hot, but imo good, :amber: take. (Yes I know. Amber.) Completely forget where she said it, but she makes the point that plenty of people, perhaps even the ancestors of you or I, have still had kids during hellish present conditions with no real reason to think the future conditions for the kids would be any better. Not really making a moral judgement about that one way or another, but it supports my belief that some people will be trying to have kids no matter what, and that it's best just to treat the general concept of having kids as value-neutral.
Sorry, I think my comment sounded like sarcasm but it was genuine: I genuinely don't know and you're right that there might be happiness in such a world. If you're in a tight loving community even under hardship in such a world, maybe there's some happiness to be found. Still think it's less likely than under better conditions, though.
This is why I'm an anti-natalist. More or less. This and the fact that the Earth is pretty fucked and maybe we shouldn't bring children into this world to suffer outright like we all acknowledge they will.
But if they never exist, then there isn't actually a recipient of that benefit/someone saved from suffering. :thinky-felix:
Edit: what I do understand is the sense that increasing one's responsibility to another life/lives as the world deteriorates may cause oneself more suffering as opposed to sticking with their current number of connections and responsibilities. A child can be a liability in hard times; that's undeniable. But again, that's really a personal choice, not a choice for another person
That's the point, though ? you're not adding a conscious being that would've suffered had you done so. There is thus objectively less suffering in the world as a result.
Objectively? How do you measure suffering and does it negate joy/pleasure or are those separate counts?
That's getting on more philosophical questions where I feel I'm less informed / knowledgeable to answer; perhaps you're right and there is joy to be had in a world of resources wars, mass migrations the like of which the species has never seen, lack of food and water, potential nuclear exchanges, and wholesale misery.
There might even be. I'll just wrap this up with a rare hot, but imo good, :amber: take. (Yes I know. Amber.) Completely forget where she said it, but she makes the point that plenty of people, perhaps even the ancestors of you or I, have still had kids during hellish present conditions with no real reason to think the future conditions for the kids would be any better. Not really making a moral judgement about that one way or another, but it supports my belief that some people will be trying to have kids no matter what, and that it's best just to treat the general concept of having kids as value-neutral.
Sorry, I think my comment sounded like sarcasm but it was genuine: I genuinely don't know and you're right that there might be happiness in such a world. If you're in a tight loving community even under hardship in such a world, maybe there's some happiness to be found. Still think it's less likely than under better conditions, though.
It did come off that way a little, but no worries. There's no elegant way to articulate that uncertainty. :rat-salute: