- You never have a billionaire owner who destroys the team with meddling
- You never have a billionaire's failson in your personnel department or something
- The city never gets extorted into building a billion-dollar stadium for a billionaire owner
- The team never moves
- You never have an ownership group that prioritizes profit maximization over on-field competitiveness
Players having an ownership stake in their teams would obviously be good, too, although I wonder if players would prefer that to the revenue sharing agreements they have now.
Because you mention players, how fucked up is the NCAA system?
That seemed like the worst kind of deal a proffesional athlete can get, could you maybe even call it slavery with additional steps?The NCAA is fucked up for sure. I think comparisons to slavery are a huge stretch, though -- shitty, exploitative wage labor jobs are already terrible, and are a much better comparison.
And while it's fair to describe some college athletes as professionals, that label makes less sense when you look at all the sports that don't generate enough revenue to cover their expenses, which is a majority of them.
That might've been a bit of a stretch, true.
I just don't want them to make a profit and at least a modest compensation other than the hope for being drafted.
But you make a good point about smaller sports being supported by this system, although I don't think they'd have a problem funding them, next to paying FB/BB some form of fair compensation, if they wanted to.I don’t think they’d have a problem funding them, next to paying FB/BB some form of fair compensation, if they wanted to.
Absolutely -- there's plenty of money, it's all how we allocate it. To add more complexity, not all schools have the same revenue-generating sports, which makes any sort of blanket policy more difficult.
What's the difference between a job and a hobby?
Say I like to go swimming. I don't think anyone would say that's a job. What if I like to go swimming, and am good enough at it that people are willing to pay to see me do it? OK, now we're in job territory. But now what if I'm a college swimmer, and I'm good enough that some people will pay a little to see me, but all of that money is eaten up by the cost of the facility, my coaches, and my scholarship. The school loses money on the swim program. Is that still a job? If it is a job, is tuition/room/board effectively an in-kind living wage?
But say it's a job and I'm not getting paid. It's still not remotely comparable to chattel slavery -- my coach can't whip me, hamstring me, or even kill me if I don't do what I'm told.
If someone is making money then it’s probably a job.
OK, so is being on a college swim team a job if the university runs the swim program at a loss? I don't think it is.
But we’re not talking about wage labor, we’re talking about non-wage labor.
Even non-wage labor is far, far, far removed from chattel slavery. It's a shitty situation, don't get me wrong, but holy fuck your boss can't torture or kill you if you don't stack boxes fast enough. And you can just walk away, too! Any comparison is just absurd, and there's no need for a comparison because directly describing how horrible the bottom rungs of capitalism are is sufficient to make any point needed.
I think, if your scholarship is tied to you performing for the swim team, I would say it is a job.
I could see that if the school was making money off your labor (as is the case in college football, for instance), but I don't think that works for sports that aren't profitable. And it seems like sports -- which don't really produce much beyond entertainment value -- are closer to hobbies than to work when they don't even produce enough entertainment value to cover their own costs.
Then again, you have a training/pipeline problem, where globally all these developing athletes are valuable because they produce the top-tier professionals that do generate significant entertainment value, but locally your individual college swim teams can't make a buck. You see this problem in baseball and boxing, too.
It seems like I'm dancing around questions of productive vs. unproductive labor, but I'm not sure that clarifies the issue of unprofitable college sports all that much. What might clarify the issue is asking "are the athletes being exploited?" If the school gives you a scholarship and loses money on your sport (e.g., swimming) I find it hard to answer that in the affirmative. If the school gives you a scholarship but pockets millions on your sport (e.g., football) I think it's much easier to say yes.
It would be a completely different discussion if this is just your local swimming club where your training is not tied to a material incentive, like a scholarship.
That is obviously a hobby, at least until you get approached by the national or regional federations.That is what I meant by bringing up the scholarship argument, it is at least de facto a job.
Because you can't just say "Fuck it, I don't like to do sport x anymore", because then the school says bye bye scholarship.
That is why I say it is a job and not a hobby anymore.But let's agree NCAA is a fuck, okay?
But let’s agree NCAA is a fuck, okay?
Haha absolutely.
Because you can’t just say “Fuck it, I don’t like to do sport x anymore”, because then the school says bye bye scholarship.
Is a student on an academic scholarship working a job then? Or what about a walk-on athlete on the swim team?
I still think the "is their labor being exploited" question is the touchstone here. If someone else is making money off of what you do, it's a job. If someone else is paying to facilitate what it is you do, and they're not profiting from it, I have a hard time calling that a job.
But why does profitability matter to you?
If our fictional swimmer is putting in all the work he can, just like the football player, then I don’t see why it is the athletes problem that it is not directly profitable for the University, if they want to provide these programs.
What also came to my mind was that Universities do profit, maybe not on this immediately obvious measurable way(like with FB), but they do like to brag about their diverse programs they sponsor, don't they?But why does profitability matter to you?
I think it's helpful in distinguishing between a hobby and a job. If I play guitar in the park sometimes, that's a hobby. If a bunch of people want to come and pay to see me play, that's a job. Should someone get any additional compensation for practicing their hobby (above and beyond everything needed to live decently, which should be guaranteed for everyone, of course)? I don't see much justification for that. Where does the expectation for additional compensation come from if whatever one is doing doesn't produce any value? It's one thing to want to receive the full value of your labor, but what if the value of your labor is zero?
What also came to my mind was that Universities do profit, maybe not on this immediately obvious measurable way(like with FB), but they do like to brag about their diverse programs they sponsor, don’t they?
That's a good point -- the value a swim team provides goes beyond ticket revenue. I'd certainly be open to increasing the compensation for swimmers if someone did some sort of econometric analysis showing that (accounting for whatever they add to the university's brand) the sport is profitable. I doubt that's the case, though, based on how few people watch sports like swimming and how sports of that type sometimes get cut from athletic programs without much overall impact on the school itself.
I think it’s helpful in distinguishing between a hobby and a job. If I play guitar in the park sometimes, that’s a hobby. If a bunch of people want to come and pay to see me play, that’s a job. Should someone get any additional compensation for practicing their hobby (above and beyond everything needed to live decently, which should be guaranteed for everyone, of course)? I don’t see much justification for that. Where does the expectation for additional compensation come from if whatever one is doing doesn’t produce any value? It’s one thing to want to receive the full value of your labor, but what if the value of your labor is zero?
I maybe should've been more clear, I was with concerns to financial compensation only talking about the specific NCAA context, if you have that education for physical performance situation.
Additionally, not all labor is that easily measurable/quantifiable to me, it kinda flows.Like the example of art, art to me inherently has a value, the quality of that art is obviously subjective, but I wouldn’t dismiss it because it doesn’t make a profit.(not suggesting you were doing that)
So like you say everyones needs need to be met, even if they just want to do street music or be a swimmer. But the level of your compensation would obviously, even in a socialist/communist society, vary somewhat depending on the appeal of your work.I think that leads into a broader discussion, like how could art/entertainment be incentivized in a socialist/communist society.
I have to admit I'm not too sure how this was/is handled in socialist countries, but I think that is a very important discussion to have at some point.Although that is pretty bougie, is it? Like to even be thinking about that, when most people don't even get what class is.(Just a thought)
That’s a good point – the value a swim team provides goes beyond ticket revenue. I’d certainly be open to increasing the compensation for swimmers if someone did some sort of econometric analysis showing that (accounting for whatever they add to the university’s brand) the sport is profitable. I doubt that’s the case, though, based on how few people watch sports like swimming and how sports of that type sometimes get cut from athletic programs without much overall impact on the school itself.
I have to admit that I'm obviously not an expert on the topic to give exact numbers, those were just my thoughts from my personal perspective on the NCAA.
I can see why the NCAA, next to just simply not wanting to give up 1$, don't want to even slightly open up this can of worms.
Because they'd have to answer these questions too, like is this work?
And I, as a leftist, wouldn't want to make that argument for them.(Sorry I can't word it without sounding snarky)
Dude I’d kill for that. I’ve been a Manchester United fan all my life, and it’s disgusting what the glazers have turned that club into since taking over. On field results matter only insofar as we perform well enough for the sponsorships to keep rolling in. The problem is rampant throughout the sport but we do it better than most.
On field results matter only insofar as we perform well enough for the sponsorships to keep rolling in.
Here's a good article on how this works in the NFL. The whole thing is pretty long but the "sacrifice competitiveness to maximize profits" part is at the beginning and fairly short.
Probably the most egregious league for this is the MLB. Every team is worth at least $1 billion, and you don't get that sort of valuation unless you have large, consistent revenues (unless you're a tech startup, but that's another story). Yet you still see tons of teams spending relative pennies long-term -- it's not even a tanking strategy, it's just being cheap.
Thank god they didn't sell to the Saudis yet. I mean the Glazers are obviously inbred Central Park material, but imagine the Saudis owning this club.
IMO something like the German 50+1 rule would be very good for a start:
The 50+1 rule (German: 50+1-Regel) is an informal term used to refer to a clause in the regulations of the Deutsche Fußball-Liga. The clause states that, in order to obtain a license to compete in the Bundesliga, a club must hold a majority of its own voting rights. The rule is designed to ensure that the club's members retain overall control, by way of owning 50% of shares, +1 share, protecting clubs from the influence of external investors.
Except if you're Red Bull. Then the rules are basically optional.
I think, if my memory serves me right, it is a similar issue as with UEFAs FFP rules.
If someone with enough money comes around the corner and won't back down, they would most likely lose a case because of some EU economic competition bullshit.
You are correct it is not ideal, but that is why I said it might be a good place to start, see what they did and improve upon it.
