I'm getting the impression from Lemmy that there's an overrepresentation of the particular demographic of comfortable middle-aged bookish software engineers who live in the US or Canada.
What word would you prefer to someone who tells you to your face that they intend to "put you up against the wall" and then asks if you "know what that means, you fucking lib"?
I mean, I'm a demsoc, and of the last 20 death threats I have received in my life, 15 came from people who identify as Communist-Leninist. PLEASE give me a better word for them.
Funny because of the dozens, if not hundreds, of death threats I've gotten, practically all of them come from zionists, NAFOs, keyboard nazis or the occasional trumpeteer.
Full disclosure, as a leftist I avoid those far-right areas like the plague. I'm quite certain I would receive more far-right death threats if I did not.
The times I tell people to go fucking die are if they're nazis, transphobes, or cops basically
You sad about me telling nazis to face the wall?
Edit: Sorry, I see now that you're not the person who made that claim, I stand by everything I said though. Also, lmao, you dont even have an example and you're this defensive about someone else?
What word would you prefer to someone who tells you to your face that they intend to "put you up against the wall" and then asks if you "know what that means, you fucking lib"?
And I bet you're fun at parties. Please oh great psychic, tell me more about myself?
And actually, I do know the difference between demsoc and socdem. The formal definition for Social Democrat is "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means." That we are constantly painted as "filthy liberal" for wanting to respect the will of the majority is a disappointing and disgusting lie. And the ONLY people who accuse socdems of being fake leftists? TANKIES. Who are not, by any meaningful definition, more left than those of us with a soul.
The only way I'm not a leftist is if your version of leftism says "fuck people, freedom, or democracy". In **your ** version of leftism, are you ok with being the 1% ruling by force against 99% who hate you? Think very carefully before replying to that.
Social Democrat is "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means."
That's what a demsoc is. Social democrats support capitalism with social programs.
Who are not, by any meaningful definition, more left than those of us with a soul.
Speaking of succdems look how even in their mind palace they're already dehumanizing anyone to the left of them. This helps when they cooperate with and enable fascist parties like they do every time in history. "Tankies don't have a soul and they're going to kill you first so it's okay to let the nazis kill them actually" I'm a REAL leftist :D
Social Democrat is “a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means.”
That’s what a demsoc is. Social democrats support capitalism with social programs.
You should tell Webster they're wrong. And Wikipedia. And Brittanica.
By their definitions, a Socdem's insistence on using democracy at all costs is what differentiates between them and demsocs.
By why is it so important for you to insist everyone use your nonstandard definition of the terms? Also, your calling us "succdems" tells me exactly everything I need to know about your permission. If I'm not willing to murder people, I'm less than human to you enough to be given a silly nickname.
“Tankies don’t have a soul and they’re going to kill you first so it’s okay to let the nazis kill them actually” I’m a REAL leftist :D
At this moment, you're on the wrong side of the "First they came for" poem because you're the one rejecting the Left.
You should tell Webster they're wrong. And Wikipedia. And Brittanica.
Not to call the editors of those fine resources for elementary school aged children stupid or anything, but the adjective-noun pairs "social democrat" and "democratic socialist" literally imply within the terms themselves what these things are. A democratic socialist is a socialist who uses democratic means. It's on the tin.
At this moment, you're on the wrong side of the "First they came for" poem because you're the one rejecting the Left.
Can you show us a time this happened? Genuinely, people shouldn't throw around death threats to anyone but war criminals billionaires nazis transphobes and cops, so if thats happening to you just because you're an average liberal I don't support that
or I'll have to assume you were on some cracker shit and actively supporting or being one of the aforementioned groups, in which case, lmao haha
Social democracy, noun a democratic welfare state that incorporates both capitalist and socialist practices
So, uh, capitalist, according to Webster. It is very funny to say "I totally know the difference between SocDem and DemSoc", and then go on to not know.
However, I'll write something up here. I'm from Denmark, a SocDem country. The current prime minister is Mette Frederiksen of the Social Democrat party. We are almost at SocDem as you can get.
This Social Democracy of Denmark formed around the time of the Soviet Union starting to get more influential, as the capitalists of Denmark found themselves needing to provide concessions to the working population, since an example of better worker rights was right next door. This was the birth of Social Democracy in Denmark. It expanded to have free healthcare, education, and a pretty strong social safety net. Now these things are of course nice for the people living in Denmark, however the second that the USSR fell, austerity started happening. I cannot remember a time in the last 20 years where the government wasn't trying to "save money". Now our healthcare system is crippled, education is getting defunded, and social safety is the same.
The only reason that the capitalist class of Denmark gave the concessions they did, was because the Soviet Union was next door. This is the reality. The capitalists will never give you anything, unless their security is threatened. To be a Social Democrat, and rejecting revolution as a concept, is to just play into what capitalists want. Social Democracy is just another way to preserve capitalism. It's not a solution, it's a band-aid for a bullet wound - might stop the bleeding for a bit, but it sure as hell will get infected if it's not treated properly. At best it's harm reduction, at worst it's a detriment to the rights of the working class.
I'm not even getting into the exploitation necessary to uphold Social Democracy, and some of the other more icky elements of the ideology. I'm just giving you an example of what has happened to every single Social Democracy currently. I understand that it's nice to think about, but I promise you that it's not the solution to the problem.
The DemSocs at least have a problem with capitalism, however while their insistence on pacifism, and reform sounds very nice, it has literally not worked once in history. Not a single time. One of the only time it got close was with Allende in Chile, and the US fucking killed him, because you cannot fight empire with just words. I'm sorry, but that is the truth. You need to be able to fight counter-revolution, sabotage, sanctions, threats, war, espionage, etc. You cannot do this within the system that is funding all those things. You have to move away from capitalism entirely, suddenly, and forcefully, otherwise you will be crushed.
Call me a tankie if you want, I don't care. But if you are going to call me this, at least tell me why. Tell me what part of what I just wrote is wrong.
Sorry, cited the wrong dictionary I guess. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/social%20democrats . I'm surprised at Webster disagreeing with everyone else. I figured every dictionary would agree. The dictionaries using my definition are:
So I've got mud on my face, citing the only source that disagrees with me.
But fine. If it really matters that much to a couple people, then there's not a term for what I am. I'm not a DemSoc because I don't realistically think we will achieve complete socialism in my lifetime and I think that's OK in the short term as long as we improve things, and actually preferable until people actually want socialism. That doesn't make me a capitalist.
Also you're going off mainstream liberal dictionaries and not how the left as a cluster of organized movements has come to definitions for its working purposes. So you're coming at it from an outside (liberal) perspective which reads as an indicator you're a liberal.
The problem with dictionaries is that they describe the popular use of a word, not necessarily the academically correct one. I only used the dictionary because it was honestly too easy to do a gotcha there.
A great example of dictionaries being "wrong" is the word "factoid". A factoid originally is a popular piece of information that is actually incorrect or false - a popular lie. Now the word factoid is in many dictionaries described as being "an insignificant or trivial fact", which is like, the exact opposite of the original meaning of the word. I'm 100% sure that in certain universities, I would be marked down for using "factoid" as "fun fact", even though dictionaries seem to think this is fine.
The original meaning of the word Social Democrat was a heavily discussed topic even in the beginning of the Soviet Union. After WW2, it was even popular within Socialist/Communist circles to call SocDems, "Social Fascists", as the enabling of the SocDems in Germany (SPD) helped the Nazis attain power, since they positioned themselves against the rest of the "left". SocDems will always rather align themselves with capital, rather than the "actual left", because the entire ideology reinforces capitalism. The reason people are mad at you here, is that SocDems have historically, every single time, helped the fascists rather than the socialists when push comes to shove. It's the reason for the quote "Social Democracy is the moderate wing of fascism". Now you can disagree with that last part, but this is history. Schumacher did betray the socialists. And he always would have, because Social Democracy is a capitalist ideology, which is why Marxists refuse to let them call themselves socialists. You cannot believe in capitalism, and socialism at the same time. They are opposites.
DemSocs on the other hand, are Reformist Socialists. They are who the dictionaries should actually refer to. They are the people who believe that a peaceful reformist transition from capitalism to socialism is the way to go, even though it has never worked. They believe that if you just vote hard enough, the capitalists will just let the poor take away their power. I don't actively dislike them, but I think it is very very naive.
Marxists are usually Revolutionary Socialists, who believe in revolution as a way to make change. This has worked several times in history, and there are several countries in the world right now that still exist after a socialist revolution, and are doing as well as you can considering that the entire western world is sanctioning them.
Marx hated Social Democrats btw. When one of the founding figures of the ideology does not think that a Social Democrat is a socialist, then I dunno what to tell you.
In short, the dictionaries are wrong. In an academic setting those definitions would be rejected instantly. People just do not understand what these ideologies are, so they use the words the wrong way. These words get used the wrong way enough, and the dictionaries will change to fit, as that is what dictionaries do. But the original meaning, that is part of the books that many of us read about these subjects, do not match with the dictionaries. If you referred to dictionary definition in a Political Science class, you would not pass, I assure you.
I appreciate the kind words, thank you. Might as well use my experience with Social Democracy for something, because it always bothers me when people think it's the solution.
God, you're such a big dumb idiot of a lib. That's the definition of a democratic socialist, not a social democrat - you can tell by the way one of the groups are call socialists and the others are called democrats.
Not only did you mix up your definitions, but you never actually managed to define democratic socialist - do you really know what the difference is if you can't even remember to talk about one of them?
The answer, scrolling down your post history to where you called yourself a socdem, is no, you think they're the exact same thing, because you don't even have a surface level understanding of leftism. It only takes 5 minutes in leftist spaces to discover that anarchists, socialists, and communists of all flavour hate socdems for exactly your "no really, somehow we'll manage to vote socialism in this time" attitude, but you've never spent a single minute in them, because you're not a leftist.
My version of leftism is called Marxism and is based in historical reality and current material conditions. Your version is fantastical utopianism that's convinced the elite are just going to give up the reigns any day now.
Death threats are an inappropriate and disproportiate response but have you considered that it is because you're more irritating to the left than you are to the right? Especially given how right wingers historically are massively more violent?
Oh fuck off lol. The biggest instance literally preemptively removedd from everyone left of Bernie Sanders. Go back to reddit if you're afraid of getting called out for being politically illiterate.
I'm guessing it dropped the F and rearranged the rest into the R slur. I can't think of any other word with most of those letters, and it is a word otuside of the slur context, a verb meaning "to slow down"
Okay so I followed the first part, you want Russians dead and all that, it's the thing rn. But you realize saying "launch the nukes" is exactly the same thing as "death to America" but with more steps, right?
I'm getting the impression from Lemmy that there's an overrepresentation of the particular demographic of comfortable middle-aged bookish software engineers who live in the US or Canada.
It's reddit rejects so what do you think
That seems to be like 95% of both reddit's and lemmy's (or some other federated instances') user-bases.
On the other hand there's also an overrepresentation of tankies. I don't think those are the same people.
"Tankie" is to liberals as "woke" is to conservative liberals and fascists.
What word would you prefer to someone who tells you to your face that they intend to "put you up against the wall" and then asks if you "know what that means, you fucking lib"?
I mean, I'm a demsoc, and of the last 20 death threats I have received in my life, 15 came from people who identify as Communist-Leninist. PLEASE give me a better word for them.
Funny because of the dozens, if not hundreds, of death threats I've gotten, practically all of them come from zionists, NAFOs, keyboard nazis or the occasional trumpeteer.
Full disclosure, as a leftist I avoid those far-right areas like the plague. I'm quite certain I would receive more far-right death threats if I did not.
so you admit that you get mostly leftist death threats because you avoid groups that would send more?
Tankies don't get death threats from other tankies? I'm shocked!
no but trans people get death threats from "anti-tankies"
Can confirm
You sound like a vooshite when you talk in this childish way, aren’t you embarrassed
people get death threats from groups they disagree with, you haven't been in any fandoms, much less online groups in general, if you don't know this.
That's literally my point.
What were the death threats personally in response to?
I'm not the one getting death threats.
So you're just talking out your ass then????
The times I tell people to go fucking die are if they're nazis, transphobes, or cops basically
You sad about me telling nazis to face the wall?
Edit: Sorry, I see now that you're not the person who made that claim, I stand by everything I said though. Also, lmao, you dont even have an example and you're this defensive about someone else?
I was not defending that person. You must've missed my sarcasm.
Oh Im autistic yeah I totally missed it lmao
Based
How many leftists do you have to execute to earn your colors?
I see no leftist here
Communist
How many leftists do you have to execute to earn your colors?
None, just liberals willing to go along to get along with fascists. Which you are.
You don't know the difference between a demsoc and a socdem. You're not any kind of socialist, just a lib who likes the idea of being seen as leftist.
And I bet you're fun at parties. Please oh great psychic, tell me more about myself?
And actually, I do know the difference between demsoc and socdem. The formal definition for Social Democrat is "a supporter or advocate of a socialist system of government achieved by democratic means." That we are constantly painted as "filthy liberal" for wanting to respect the will of the majority is a disappointing and disgusting lie. And the ONLY people who accuse socdems of being fake leftists? TANKIES. Who are not, by any meaningful definition, more left than those of us with a soul.
The only way I'm not a leftist is if your version of leftism says "fuck people, freedom, or democracy". In **your ** version of leftism, are you ok with being the 1% ruling by force against 99% who hate you? Think very carefully before replying to that.
That's what a demsoc is. Social democrats support capitalism with social programs.
Speaking of succdems look how even in their mind palace they're already dehumanizing anyone to the left of them. This helps when they cooperate with and enable fascist parties like they do every time in history. "Tankies don't have a soul and they're going to kill you first so it's okay to let the nazis kill them actually" I'm a REAL leftist :D
You should tell Webster they're wrong. And Wikipedia. And Brittanica.
By their definitions, a Socdem's insistence on using democracy at all costs is what differentiates between them and demsocs.
By why is it so important for you to insist everyone use your nonstandard definition of the terms? Also, your calling us "succdems" tells me exactly everything I need to know about your permission. If I'm not willing to murder people, I'm less than human to you enough to be given a silly nickname.
At this moment, you're on the wrong side of the "First they came for" poem because you're the one rejecting the Left.
Not to call the editors of those fine resources for elementary school aged children stupid or anything, but the adjective-noun pairs "social democrat" and "democratic socialist" literally imply within the terms themselves what these things are. A democratic socialist is a socialist who uses democratic means. It's on the tin.
This has to be a bit
Yeah, it's the bit where I've gotten threats on my life.
What does that have to do with you referencing a poem you never read the first two lines from?
Can you show us a time this happened? Genuinely, people shouldn't throw around death threats to anyone but war criminals billionaires nazis transphobes and cops, so if thats happening to you just because you're an average liberal I don't support that
or I'll have to assume you were on some cracker shit and actively supporting or being one of the aforementioned groups, in which case, lmao haha
did you think this one through at all? like, give it even a seconds thought?
Merriam-Webster:
So, uh, capitalist, according to Webster. It is very funny to say "I totally know the difference between SocDem and DemSoc", and then go on to not know.
However, I'll write something up here. I'm from Denmark, a SocDem country. The current prime minister is Mette Frederiksen of the Social Democrat party. We are almost at SocDem as you can get.
This Social Democracy of Denmark formed around the time of the Soviet Union starting to get more influential, as the capitalists of Denmark found themselves needing to provide concessions to the working population, since an example of better worker rights was right next door. This was the birth of Social Democracy in Denmark. It expanded to have free healthcare, education, and a pretty strong social safety net. Now these things are of course nice for the people living in Denmark, however the second that the USSR fell, austerity started happening. I cannot remember a time in the last 20 years where the government wasn't trying to "save money". Now our healthcare system is crippled, education is getting defunded, and social safety is the same.
The only reason that the capitalist class of Denmark gave the concessions they did, was because the Soviet Union was next door. This is the reality. The capitalists will never give you anything, unless their security is threatened. To be a Social Democrat, and rejecting revolution as a concept, is to just play into what capitalists want. Social Democracy is just another way to preserve capitalism. It's not a solution, it's a band-aid for a bullet wound - might stop the bleeding for a bit, but it sure as hell will get infected if it's not treated properly. At best it's harm reduction, at worst it's a detriment to the rights of the working class.
I'm not even getting into the exploitation necessary to uphold Social Democracy, and some of the other more icky elements of the ideology. I'm just giving you an example of what has happened to every single Social Democracy currently. I understand that it's nice to think about, but I promise you that it's not the solution to the problem.
The DemSocs at least have a problem with capitalism, however while their insistence on pacifism, and reform sounds very nice, it has literally not worked once in history. Not a single time. One of the only time it got close was with Allende in Chile, and the US fucking killed him, because you cannot fight empire with just words. I'm sorry, but that is the truth. You need to be able to fight counter-revolution, sabotage, sanctions, threats, war, espionage, etc. You cannot do this within the system that is funding all those things. You have to move away from capitalism entirely, suddenly, and forcefully, otherwise you will be crushed.
Call me a tankie if you want, I don't care. But if you are going to call me this, at least tell me why. Tell me what part of what I just wrote is wrong.
Sorry, cited the wrong dictionary I guess. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/social%20democrats . I'm surprised at Webster disagreeing with everyone else. I figured every dictionary would agree. The dictionaries using my definition are:
Collins, Dictionary.com, Oxford English Dictionary, Brittanica, Cambridge, Wictionary
So I've got mud on my face, citing the only source that disagrees with me.
But fine. If it really matters that much to a couple people, then there's not a term for what I am. I'm not a DemSoc because I don't realistically think we will achieve complete socialism in my lifetime and I think that's OK in the short term as long as we improve things, and actually preferable until people actually want socialism. That doesn't make me a capitalist.
Also you're going off mainstream liberal dictionaries and not how the left as a cluster of organized movements has come to definitions for its working purposes. So you're coming at it from an outside (liberal) perspective which reads as an indicator you're a liberal.
The problem with dictionaries is that they describe the popular use of a word, not necessarily the academically correct one. I only used the dictionary because it was honestly too easy to do a gotcha there.
A great example of dictionaries being "wrong" is the word "factoid". A factoid originally is a popular piece of information that is actually incorrect or false - a popular lie. Now the word factoid is in many dictionaries described as being "an insignificant or trivial fact", which is like, the exact opposite of the original meaning of the word. I'm 100% sure that in certain universities, I would be marked down for using "factoid" as "fun fact", even though dictionaries seem to think this is fine.
The original meaning of the word Social Democrat was a heavily discussed topic even in the beginning of the Soviet Union. After WW2, it was even popular within Socialist/Communist circles to call SocDems, "Social Fascists", as the enabling of the SocDems in Germany (SPD) helped the Nazis attain power, since they positioned themselves against the rest of the "left". SocDems will always rather align themselves with capital, rather than the "actual left", because the entire ideology reinforces capitalism. The reason people are mad at you here, is that SocDems have historically, every single time, helped the fascists rather than the socialists when push comes to shove. It's the reason for the quote "Social Democracy is the moderate wing of fascism". Now you can disagree with that last part, but this is history. Schumacher did betray the socialists. And he always would have, because Social Democracy is a capitalist ideology, which is why Marxists refuse to let them call themselves socialists. You cannot believe in capitalism, and socialism at the same time. They are opposites.
DemSocs on the other hand, are Reformist Socialists. They are who the dictionaries should actually refer to. They are the people who believe that a peaceful reformist transition from capitalism to socialism is the way to go, even though it has never worked. They believe that if you just vote hard enough, the capitalists will just let the poor take away their power. I don't actively dislike them, but I think it is very very naive.
Marxists are usually Revolutionary Socialists, who believe in revolution as a way to make change. This has worked several times in history, and there are several countries in the world right now that still exist after a socialist revolution, and are doing as well as you can considering that the entire western world is sanctioning them.
Marx hated Social Democrats btw. When one of the founding figures of the ideology does not think that a Social Democrat is a socialist, then I dunno what to tell you.
In short, the dictionaries are wrong. In an academic setting those definitions would be rejected instantly. People just do not understand what these ideologies are, so they use the words the wrong way. These words get used the wrong way enough, and the dictionaries will change to fit, as that is what dictionaries do. But the original meaning, that is part of the books that many of us read about these subjects, do not match with the dictionaries. If you referred to dictionary definition in a Political Science class, you would not pass, I assure you.
Thank you for your comments they are packed with good info btw
I appreciate the kind words, thank you. Might as well use my experience with Social Democracy for something, because it always bothers me when people think it's the solution.
God, you're such a big dumb idiot of a lib. That's the definition of a democratic socialist, not a social democrat - you can tell by the way one of the groups are call socialists and the others are called democrats. Not only did you mix up your definitions, but you never actually managed to define democratic socialist - do you really know what the difference is if you can't even remember to talk about one of them? The answer, scrolling down your post history to where you called yourself a socdem, is no, you think they're the exact same thing, because you don't even have a surface level understanding of leftism. It only takes 5 minutes in leftist spaces to discover that anarchists, socialists, and communists of all flavour hate socdems for exactly your "no really, somehow we'll manage to vote socialism in this time" attitude, but you've never spent a single minute in them, because you're not a leftist.
My version of leftism is called Marxism and is based in historical reality and current material conditions. Your version is fantastical utopianism that's convinced the elite are just going to give up the reigns any day now.
Death threats are an inappropriate and disproportiate response but have you considered that it is because you're more irritating to the left than you are to the right? Especially given how right wingers historically are massively more violent?
Oh fuck off lol. The biggest instance literally preemptively removedd from everyone left of Bernie Sanders. Go back to reddit if you're afraid of getting called out for being politically illiterate.
I'm guessing your autocorrect didn't like the word "defederated" and turned it into a word that's a slur if you don't include the 'd' at the end? lol
also I agree with your comment.
edit- Who wouldn't want to be called an outfox?
Lol yeah I was on my way back from my lunch break when I typed that no clue what it autocorrected too
I'm guessing it dropped the F and rearranged the rest into the R slur. I can't think of any other word with most of those letters, and it is a word otuside of the slur context, a verb meaning "to slow down"
Defederate but with a g for the f and a n for the d is also filtered iirc.
yep that was probably it lol
Are the tankies in the room with us right now sweetie?
Hell yeah we are
No, they're distributed. And federated.
I’m coming to put you in the gulag and seize your property
Did you mean communists? Common westerner mistake
there's no such thing as a tankie, the word literally has no meaning
Death to America
Removed by mod
Okay so I followed the first part, you want Russians dead and all that, it's the thing rn. But you realize saying "launch the nukes" is exactly the same thing as "death to America" but with more steps, right?
You don’t even know the name of the party. Don’t speak on things you clearly know nothing about
Marxists who question BS is tankie
"Everyone to the left of me isn't being actively purged from the platform and it's not to my tastes"
Fucking leave then
What's a tankie?
Someone who supports the rights of those in the global south
Hell yea
Lmao