I have no friends or partner, I’ve been very lonely.
When I go out to try to meet people, no one ever comes up to me and starts talking to me. But if I want to meet someone I have to do exactly that. But like, why should I have to be the one to initiate 100% of the time? Shouldn’t it be 50/50? (And I’m not really talking about societal expectations of the man initiating with the woman, I’d rather have a boyfriend anyway.)
I have such a hard time initiating conversations with people, to the point where I mostly just stress out and sit there alone. If someone initiated with me things might go better. But they just don’t.
The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that literally no one has any interest in me.
One thing that I suspect you're probably missing is that you are likely to be giving off "Don't engage with me" vibes unintentionally.
If you go to a social place like a cafe or a bar or somewhere similar, observe how different people signal whether they are open or closed to interactions with others (often this is quite subtle so unless you're fluent in body language or an avid people-watcher, you may miss the smaller cues so YMMV.)
People who are open to engagement with others will have at least a small smile on their faces, they will orient their bodies outwards towards the open space rather than towards a corner or a wall, they will have their heads up and often they'll be scanning the room or gazing out into the room, and they will do things like make limited eye contact with others who are doing the same thing.
If brief eye contact is made with another person, often that's where there's a subtle exchange of signals that occurs such as a slightly increased smile, a small nod of acknowledgement, a quick raise of the eyebrows (but not in an exaggerated or suggestive way - more like an eyebrow flash that monkeys do to signal friendliness or submission [i.e. "I'm not a threat"/"my eye contact is not intended to be intimidation"]), perhaps even mouthing the word "hi" or a small, open-handed gesture like a raised finger or two or a sort of truncated wave.
Then the next thing is for one of the two people to approach the other, often under pretext, and to start with an opener. This is culturally specific so it becomes more difficult to determine what is appropriate given your cultural context but openers which are neutral and directed at something external and mutually agreeable is a way of signalling intent to engage on a friendly basis rather than seeking to pick someone up, so something like "It's a beautiful day out there" would be the cue for the other person to respond affirmatively and to build on the opener and to leave conversational "breadcrumbs" to signal that they wish to lead the conversation from behind, so their response might be "It really is. It's a nice break from the awful weather we've been having and it's so much nicer walking my dog when it's like this."
The "breadcrumb" there is that the other person is signalling that they want the first person to lead the discussion towards the topic of their dog. "Oh, I love dogs. What breed do you have?"
Etc. Etc.
Once the other person has reciprocated enough and there is an indication that there's mutuality in the conversation after a few more back-and-forths which are kept light and are not too personal, especially when the other person has shown interest in the person who approached them, the person who approached might say something like "Do you mind if I take a seat?" while gesturing towards a nearby seat which is not in direct contact with the other person. A seat opposite them or one which can be reached without having to squeeze past the other party is a socially-appropriate choice, except where it's a particularly small or crowded venue in which case being in close quarters is to be expected and it's generally more acceptable.
This is generally where you would introduce yourself by name and seek the name of the other person before continuing the conversation.
This is more or less how people strike up conversations with other people who are strangers in public venues where people are open to approach. Restaurants at dinner are generally not appropriate. Casual dining restaurants at lunchtime are more appropriate for seeking conversation. Bars are almost always appropriate to seek conversation in. There's a lot of rules...
All of that sounds good in theory, but it also sounds like an excerpt from a list of things autistic people can't do or find extremely difficult. Just keeping a smile on my face takes effort and feels so forced that there's no way people can't tell it is.
Actually, I'm wearing a mask anyway because I don't want to catch covid. I'm guessing most people see me wearing a mask (and like an N95 not a shitty cloth mask) and are turned away by the "weirdness" of it because "covid is over". Even though the chance of me catching covid without a mask is probably greater than the chance of me talking to anyone, with or without a mask. Or it probably just comes off as uninviting in general, it's literally a protective barrier.
I won't even go over why the small talk and signals and shit are hard, because I've never gotten there anyway.
Also, bars being about the only good place makes things harder because I don't drink, so I'd be going there and just sitting at a table doing nothing and probably end up just looking at my phone which definitely would signal people not to engage.
On the autism thing... what are your interests? I'm in largely the same boat, but I've made a few friends through a local club for fish keepers. While I doubt that is of much interest to you, the most pleasant part about it is that I never have to make small talk or worry about masking. Hobbyist communities were tailor-made for autistic people and they usually have some sort of structured social activities to participate in. Mine even does a monthly Zoom social hour for the immunocompromised and agoraphobes like me.
Bars and clubs have never been my preferred social space for the reasons you've listed, but those venues are honestly designed for neurotypicals to meet other neurotypicals. If you enjoy them then by all means keep at it, but I'd also suggest finding some more ND-friendly spaces so that you aren't exclusively comparing yourself to the more socially fluent NTs in your life. Some examples I've found beyond hobbies:
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Some nearby kombucha bars are a lot quieter than traditional bars and often will even hold designated sensory-friendly events. Usually the sort of people who go to a kombucha bar instead of a traditional bar are also looking to meet people. A colleague who is also autistic introduced me to the concept.
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Animal shelters that need volunteers are nice because you get to know people while working alongside them in a low pressure environment, and anyone who volunteers at an animal shelter will likely be at least somewhat empathetic. Of course, some of the volunteers are simply there because they prefer the company of animals over people.
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If there's a college nearby, I've enjoyed attending some community theater productions and usually people are willing to talk about the show when it's done. I've never met any friend this way, but it's alright when you're craving some conversation beyond job-related small talk.
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The kombucha colleague also goes to a drum circle... I think I'd be way too self-conscious to do anything like that, but it has become pretty integral to his social life. He is not an accomplished social masker so I think it must be a pretty welcoming environment?
Once I stopped trying to socialize the way neurotypicals socialize, my social life became much more enjoyable. It's good to push yourself out of your comfort zone, but there's also plenty of good to find within your comfort zone. I aim for the sweet spot where the two start to overlap.
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Sure, but I'm just giving a rough description of a typical way that a casual conversation or connection would be struck by two strangers following allistic conventions to give OP an opportunity to consider where they may be giving the wrong signals to allistic people which makes them feel "unapproachable" for conversation/friendship with strangers so they can reflect upon what might be within their capacity to change, if they so choose to mask in order to connect with people.
I won't even go over why the small talk and signals and shit are hard, because I've never gotten there anyway.
Fair enough and I understand anyway. In my experience it doesn't ever get any easier but you can get better at it, although it's taxing to do.
Also, bars being about the only good place makes things harder because I don't drink, so I'd be going there and just sitting at a table doing nothing and probably end up just looking at my phone which definitely would signal people not to engage.
So, like I mentioned, there are the options like cafes or casual dining places particularly during lunch. And there's no rule against going to a bar and drinking something non-alcoholic.
If you are looking at your phone then you can apply the strategies detailed above sporadically to see if anyone is willing to make a connection with you. Or you might consider something else like playing pool or reading a book.
I feel like you're taking my general advice, which was a response for OP to use for their own reflection, and you're taking it personally. If you struggle with things like small talk and facial expressions to the point that it's prohibitively difficult for you then it might be better for you to seek out autistic spaces or groups in your community because then there will be far less expectations for masking when you are attempting to connect with others.
I am OP btw, that reply was my reflection of your general advice. I’ll definitely try to be more aware of my perceived approachability, but it will be difficult to put on an approachable vibe. I’m not particularly good at masking even if I wanted to, I’ve spent most of my life (especially high school, before I knew I’m autistic) just staying withdrawn from other people to avoid the trouble of social interaction entirely. That was a huge mistake in retrospect, probably the worst mistake of my life, but I had no way to know that.
If you struggle with things like small talk and facial expressions to the point that it's prohibitively difficult for you then it might be better for you to seek out autistic spaces or groups in your community
I’ve sought out specific spaces, but I just haven’t found anything.
I am OP btw
Shit, do I feel like a doofus 😬
I’ve spent most of my life (especially high school, before I knew I’m autistic) just staying withdrawn from other people to avoid the trouble of social interaction entirely. That was a huge mistake in retrospect, probably the worst mistake of my life, but I had no way to know that.
I wouldn't be too hard on yourself. Socialising when you're autistic is hard especially if you are doing it without the right support or the right environment. Withdrawing is a very understandable response to situations which are overwhelming or which feel like they're impossible.
As someone who is high masking, late diagnosed, and who put huge amounts of effort to try and understand socialising with allistic people to fit in, it's a nice skill to be able to draw upon but I can't say that I'm convinced that it was worth the toll that it took on my mental health nor the social situations that it got me into. But I'll spare you the pity party. Suffice it to say that it's easy to look at high maskers and to want that for yourself but what you don't really get to see is all of the negative consequences that comes from being high masking and what it takes to get to that point.
I’ve sought out specific spaces, but I just haven’t found anything.
Keep on looking and consider the "nerdier" hobbies because they tend to attract neurodivergent people. You might want to think about taking up something like D&D or a hobby that you're interested in that attracts diehard enthusiasts because you'll often find autistic people hiding out in those kinds of spaces and having shared interests or opportunities to share experiences can take a lot of the effort out of establishing connection with people.
Since you're still masking, have you considered intentionally connecting with others who are? There's a disproportionate number of neurodivergent people in covid-conscious spaces because, broadly, we're less likely to make decisions based on social pressure and what everyone else is doing. You might be able to find people to meet up with in person as well as local covid-conscious events on covidmeetups.com and also through Facebook groups with the prefix "Still Coviding"
What is this ritual ass shit. People just expect you to know this?
Right?
And that's just the brief overview in general terms to provide a foundation so that you are able to identify and observe this pattern in real life, where it takes on a whole lot more subtlety and nuance and it's much more contextual.
This shit gives me a migraine.
But if I want to meet someone I have to do exactly that. But like, why should I have to be the one to initiate 100% of the time? Shouldn’t it be 50/50?
I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding how a NT person experiences social interaction. It is almost entirely unconscious for them. They are running on literal monkey social software, no offense to NT comrades of course. They make connections, form relationships, and interact with very little conscious thought. The problem with using this monkey social software is that it has the morals of a monkey. I.E. it identifies the other, that being you and me, and unconsciously removes you from the potential friend pool.
If you could ask them "Why didn't you talk with me?" they probably wouldn't be able to give you an answer. The best is an ad hoc "bad vibe" which just means you're ND in 95% of cases. But unless they are intimately conscious of how their brains process social information they literally have no idea why they won't talk to you. Because of this, you have to be the one to break through to them. It sucks, think of it as a person of color having to work 2x as hard to get the same job as a white person.
The "good" news is that once you break through to the friend stage your behavior no longer gives off "bad vibes" and you just become the ND friend. Use their own unconscious bias against them to make friends. If you act as if you're friends with someone they'll feel the social pressure and ad hoc think of you as a friend.
I'm a big fan of finding a group and interjecting tidbits to their conversation until they warm up to me. Takes a lot of pressure off to join an ongoing conversation.
i recently started volunteering for my local parks and leading groups to remove invasive plants. it made me realize stuff like that is a way to meet and connect with people. That's just one example that could apply to many activities. Also helps that most environmentalists are at minimum a liberal so i never have to deal with any chuds. Unfortunately ive always lived where i live so I still have some people around. Somewhere out there is a person for you who likes to talk, which is a great match for people like us who have trouble starting conversations.
why should I have to be the one to initiate 100% of the time?
I don't know :( It's like that for me too almost all of the time (there have been a couple of exceptions, that were really nice and helped me so much). I'm sorry that it's like that for you too. I've been told by some people that I seemed "intimidating" until they got to know me, so it's probably that for me. It's sad, cuz I am really not trying to be.
I think for some of us this is just the case and for different reasons. Some people will see others standoffish because they think are attractive and will assume them to be dismissive.
I think if you can acknowledge it as your "social role" to some degree, and just try to do your best with it. Try initiating until you become desensitized to it. Ain't going to lie, it's gonna suck for a long time and you have keep an effort up, but it is learnable.
Good advice. I've sort of been doing this, but I should just fully accept this as my role. I've been using dating apps a lot this year, and been always sending the first message and asking them out. And it's been going pretty well tbh. (I LOVE dating apps, for all of their real flaws, they're the only way I've ever dated).
I haven't met anyone IRL for like 18 years
I am probably permanently undateable and I am at my wit's end about it. I don't want to die but it feels like I'm stuck and will never move on from this state of being,
lmao my entire wardrobe is t-shirts (mostly non-graphic) and jeans. Plus a few polo shirts. I have no idea what to wear besides that.
Consider the sports coat or a car coat. Maybe in a nice tweed, well fitted. With a t shirt youll look a bit Berkeley Start-up founder, but its not a bad thing.
Or for more casual looks any sort of jacket. In any case layering is key. Military surplus is generally great for this, especially ex eastern bloc.
Get a pair of chelsea boots in black or brown. You can wear them for anything from hiking to a job interview.
look a a picture of adam sandler and if you look similar wear anything else and youll be ok
the best advice hurts just a little
if youre fashionable people will walk up and complement you often
I've actually found this to be true. Especially if you have nice shoes. I've even had girls compliment them sometimes.
It’s totally fine and normal for your work to be a social outlet. Also, a church or special interest group is a great place to go. I’ve also met some great people at local game shops playing DND and Magic. Join some special interest Slack or Discord channels that are location specific. A Chicago Java Script group or whatever and go to meetups. There are lots people that feel just as alone as you, you can be the one to reach out and help lift them up! Cheers and good luck!
The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that literally no one has any interest in me.
sort of, but it's because people are busy and dealing with everything going on in their own meager existence, not a malicious dismissal. one solution to that is "be interesting" but doing stuff you don't normally do is really high-effort and i can't myself.
Same here... even hobby groups, aside from a few people there.
Although, and I say this, knowing this is not for everyone, I've recently started going to my local kink/BDSM scene. The people there are more friendly than other places I've seen, and are very non judgemental, and many are neurodivergent.
Your question is answered in one of your comments:
Actually, I'm wearing a mask anyway because I don't want to catch covid. I'm guessing most people see me wearing a mask (and like an N95 not a shitty cloth mask) and are turned away by the "weirdness" of it because "covid is over". Even though the chance of me catching covid without a mask is probably greater than the chance of me talking to anyone, with or without a mask. Or it probably just comes off as uninviting in general, it's literally a protective barrier.
It's 100% this. You're thinking too hard about it. No one wants to talk to you because everyone is resentful that you haven't "moved on" from Covid. In their plague rat eyes, you're a complete freak for even taking Covid seriously, let along taking Covid seriously almost 4 years in. The NTs (this is NT plague rats in particular and not just plague rats in general who also sadly include some NDs who should know better) are also deeply resentful that their ability to read your facial expressions are greatly hindered because your mouth is hidden behind a mask.
You could be the most stereotypical NT with complete mastery of NT communication and social skills, and you will still get the cold shoulder because you're wearing a mask. Society has drawn a line in the sand, and if you refuse to take off the mask, you're going to face social ostracization no matter what you do.
i'm so tired
