The American media loves saying that, but does it really have a right to exist? Does an apartheid colonizing regime have the right to exist in someone else’s land?
It really doesn't. Neither does Amerika for that matter; but the settlers would never accept that as an answer.
Decolonization and mandatory re-education of settler-descent persons is really the only sane answer. I could be saying a half-dozen more overtly ghoulish things; but the first step of least harm is a ceding of power and privilege from the colonizers to the colonized, and education as to the fuckery that this country-- and as a result, Israel-- perpetuated to come into existence, and why what they did is an aberration.
Who is included in the colonized and colonist categories in this sense? All "white" people? All white passing people no matter background? Recent (last 50 years) migrants of all races?
What would the differentiation be, and what is the line in the sand? This doesn't seem to be nearly as cut and dry as "Isreali vs Palestinian".
The differentiation is "can we trace your geneaology up to a slave owner, or further up to the pilgrim ships". There'd need to be a party apparatus for this sort of records-checking; but I imagine in this day and age, there's likely a technological solution for this that I'm not immediately landing on. Beyond that, I'm not above the idea of re-educating anyone who's ever flagged themselves "Caucasian" on a federal census; but the priorities are 'do you have slave-owner in your blood'.
That does seem like a good criteria, but that is an extremely small and limited amount of people. Slave owners were by far concentrated in the South, and only the ultra-wealthy could afford to own slaves to begin with. It was only a 1-2 percent of people owning 95%+ of all slaves. As most free people in the South, white or black, were themselves near destitute and extremely poor.
Plus records of that would be difficult to work with, yes a direct relative would be an easy find, but we would go after someone for their great great great great great uncle twice removed owning slaves?
Also the Caucasian label is itself extremely tenuous, as you would catch the decent majority of slavs, turks, some arabs, Romani, and a whole hell of a lot of bizarre and "non-white" groups by going after the Caucasian label.
Plus then you run into the problem of a decent chunk of people being mixed, meaning no single label would work well for them, or you could have a family where one partner could have had a slave owning ancestor, while their partner had a ancestor who was a slave, and one of their children is extremely dark, while one of their siblings could be much lighter, and then another that's white as snow. There would be an absurd amount of unique scenarios you would have to grapple with, this is just one.
Is it such a sin to want to see those who self-identify a certain way educated on the baggage they've associated themselves with? You raise fair points on the concept of mixed families; but beyond that, while self-identification is fine and all, I see a use case for the education.
But its not really "self-identification", its not really a personal choice is it? You can't just self-identify as another ethnicity, race, or background, and most people don't give theirs a second thought.
Education should just be done overall. I just don't see the point in otherizing and targeting certain groups on factors such as race, sexuality, ethnicity, or background, barring other overt reasons. I'm definitely not defending racist white chuds and they're the first ones that could use reeducation, but it just feels like belief and views should be a primary concern. I've met plenty of gusanos, extremely out of touch extremely wealthy minorities, and people with racist families who grew beyond that. It just feels the main separator is class and education more then anything.
Again, going back to it, dividing a clean cut colonizer and colonized just seems to be near impossible in the United States. It feels like other factors should be taken into account first.
I fully agree, and I feel the logic follows that the only actual path to peace for Israel/Palestine is a sort of de-Balkanization, a one-state solution where the one state in question can't be Israel or Palestine.
Naive. It is naive to think that the Zionists won't take and take and take until they're all that is left-- exactly in the example of the crackers. Colonialism is a cancer, and your treatment plan is to just let it ravage the region-- and if this is really the only path of peace, then maybe the conflict deserves to flare up from the Palestinian side, with just as little mercy as the Zionists show them.
I feel like this admittedly old but still very relevant piece by Edward Said makes some good points. Notably:
What exists now is a disheartening, not to say, bloody, impasse. Zionists in and outside Israel will not give up on their wish for a separate Jewish state; Palestinians want the same thing for themselves, despite having accepted much less from Oslo. Yet in both instances, the idea of a state for ''ourselves'' simply flies in the face of the facts: short of ethnic cleansing or ''mass transfer,'' as in 1948, there is no way for Israel to get rid of the Palestinians or for Palestinians to wish Israelis away. Neither side has a viable military option against the other, which, I am sorry to say, is why both opted for a peace that so patently tries to accomplish what war couldn't.
and
The beginning is to develop something entirely missing from both Israeli and Palestinian realities today: the idea and practice of citizenship, not of ethnic or racial community, as the main vehicle for coexistence. In a modern state, all its members are citizens by virtue of their presence and the sharing of rights and responsibilities. Citizenship therefore entitles an Israeli Jew and a Palestinian Arab to the same privileges and resources. A constitution and a bill of rights thus become necessary for getting beyond Square 1 of the conflict because each group would have the same right to self-determination; that is, the right to practice communal life in its own (Jewish or Palestinian) way, perhaps in federated cantons, with a joint capital in Jerusalem, equal access to land and inalienable secular and juridical rights. Neither side should be held hostage to religious extremists.
Do you think it possible for the brutalized to live in peace with the people that brutalized them? That cheered brutalizing them? Especially in the same generation that the brutalized were being entirely destroyed? You too, cosign letting cancer ravage the region.
That does seem like a good criteria, but that is an extremely small and limited amount of people. Slave owners were by far concentrated in the South, and only the ultra-wealthy could afford to own slaves to begin with. It was only a 1-2 percent of people owning 95%+ of all slaves. As most free people in the South, white or black, were themselves near destitute and extremely poor.
people rented slaves, and for the purposes of this discussion, that should be at least partial credit for "owning"
Sure, but how in the world would you ever prove that? I doubt less then 1 percent of the receipts from those transactions survived.
land ownership would be easier to find records for and is probably a decent proxy.
if the other person's "reeducate anyone who checked the caucasian box" idea is too extreme, maybe a compromise could be reeducation for anyone defending the use of confederate symbols.
Yeah that last bits fine. But land ownership seems a bit extreme, again, just owning land doesn’t signify anything.
owning land in a settler-colonial slave society sure fucking signifies something. holy shit dude
No it fucking doesn’t? A random ass ancestor owning land isn’t something you can pin on a random person in the modern day.
What does that signify? Plus like I mentioned before, the vast majority are dirt poor subsistence farmers playing with second rate dirt while mega plantations owned by the bourgeoisie hog hundreds of square miles of prime land that’s operated by literal slaves. Those subsistence farmers aren’t really the vanguard of the settler colonial force.
But imagine someone came up to you today and said, “Well it seems like one of your ancestors 250 years ago simply existed in a settler colonial area, even though they were dirt fucking poor, and we don’t have any evidence or documentation. Prepare for reeducation!” I’m sure you’d love that?
slavery "ended" only 160 years ago in the united states. Convict leasing wasn't fully abolished until 1942. The 13th amendment allows slavery as punishment for a crime, and prisoners are paid a pittance or not at all for labor they perform.
The genocide of indigenous people is still happening.
american society is incredibly racist (among other structural prejudices) to this day and you are an ignorant, reactionary liberal.
Ok? Everything you said is true. Why are you making it seem like I love slavery or think that slavery and it’s consequences magically disappeared?
Thanks for strawmanning my entire argument.
This entire conversation was based on the fact that you can’t cleanly divide American society as colonized and colonizer except for very niche cases, and that if you can’t make that distinction why is it a prime decider of who gets thrown in reeducation?
Thanks for the name calling though!
Ok? Everything you said is true. Why are you making it seem like I love slavery or think that slavery and it’s consequences magically disappeared?
Thanks for strawmanning my entire argument.
where did I do this exactly?
ceding of power and privilege from the colonizers to the colonized
How do you envision this?
They can either give it up peacefully, or we can get into some Greenwood, into some Watts shit again. Would I rather see a 'peaceful transition of power' the way the crackers think their 'democracy' works? Of course. Am I really that naive, though? Hell fuckin' no. I might've been born at night; but it sure as hell wasn't last night, and when I balance out my scales, the weight of a settler life does not mean HALF as much to me as a life of one colonized.
So in the face of that, and a country in which we cannot live with these crackers, cannot be safe around these crackers, cannot find the cultures, practices, and names that were stolen from us by these crackers, and cannot pursue our own self-determination around these crackers, what do you propose we do? Just sit here, lookin stupid, letting these crackers keep exploiting us, raping us, thieving from us, incarcerating us without cause, and eventually killing us?
They can either give it up peacefully, or we can get into some Greenwood, into some Tulsa shit again, but flipped
They who? Capitalists? Politicians? Every white person, going by the poorly defined US definition of white?
By this point you might think I'm some lemmy-tier debate pervert, hampering endlessly for trolling. That is not the case. I'm trying to make sense of what the comrades over at the core envision their future struggles to be, because you know this is coming eventually over to my periphery.
Part of me genuinely does. The only reason I'm still humoring this conversation is because I recognize your username and have seen you about on this fed before.
I see a future in which we have to fight against all whiteness. In which the current-day clarion calls of the politicians and capitalist elites toward the populace to rally 'round in protection of whiteness itself are heeded in full. Every time you hear a casual "slava ukraini" in the west, you are hearing the reaffirmation of solidarity with global whiteness. They've chosen their side and their praxis.
"When Zelensky, Biden, Macron, talk about "common European values," Africans and all non-European peoples understand its real meaning. It is a call for white Western solidarity in response to the global shift of power away from the West. It is essentially an appeal to support white supremacy through the maintenance of white material power that is based on the extractivist, parasitic relationship between the “West” and the rest of us." -- Ajamu Baraka
They've started imprisoning our forefront activists again in attempts to shut us up, looking at what's been done to the Uhuru 3, and the RICO charges filed against anti-Cop City protesters. They've already started, and the "White Lives Matter" movements are gaining steam hand-in-hand with the Banderites nourished by the Democrats. This will not end cleanly, and frankly, I'd say it lost the chance to end cleanly years ago.
Just like it has for Palestine.
They who? Capitalists? Politicians? Every white person, going by the poorly defined US definition of white?
I think we can look at the Cuban revolution for some answers. They started building their socialist project, and the opponents of that basically self selected. The ex-Cubans of Miami seem in general much whiter than people in Cuba.
I don't think there's a reason to proactively define colonial lines or whatever (though I agree with @absentthereaper@lemmygrad.ml ).
I think a revolution in the U$ will have to be lead (or mostly driven by) colonized people, and decolonization will be a part of that.
The people who benefitted from Cuban plantations, and wanted to keep those benefits, weren't removed in a process separate from the revolution - they opposed the revolution (and the restructuring that came afterwards), and were dealt with because of that.
The people who benefitted from Cuban plantations, and wanted to keep those benefits, weren’t removed in a process separate from the revolution - they opposed the revolution (and the restructuring that came afterwards), and were dealt with because of that.
See, now that is the logic I can actually follow. That makes sense. Thank you
Give them a bit of germanny as reparations for the holocaust and move them there.
Most of em were originall from there yidish is a germanic language after all. And it would be more justified since we can all agree germany did the holocaust. And the jews need their own state to protect themselves from future instances of that. So if the germans broke it they should fix it. Way should the palestinians pay for the duck?
This solution may have been sensible in 1945, for reasons you have described. But now? How many people in Israel even speak Yiddish?
Makes more sense than settling them in the middle east.
They are an european (germanic) people and they were persecuted by europeans(mainly germans) so it should fall to europeans to decide the compensation not to middle easterners.
Absolutely not. The Zionists are colonizers and all land must be returned immediately to the Palestinians
In the abstract sense in that current "Israeli" borders are maintained when it becomes a Palestinian state? Yes. It should not be reduced or divvied up among its neighbors.
As it currently stands as a geopolitical entity that we consider Israel? No. What is considered currently as Israel should be a Palestinian state.
Sure, but that's not really Israeli borders. No one recognizes it as theirs. It is still "Syrian" territory.
No state has a right to exist, frankly, but Israel is extra not having the right to exist
There’s something that irks me about this question but I can’t quite figure out what it is until now.
States don’t have rights; people have rights. The state only exists to promote the interests of a certain class. And in this case, the Israeli state promotes the interests of the Israeli bourgeois, and enforces its will over not only the Israeli people but also the Palestinian people due to a weakened Palestinian state.
By framing the state as having rights, you’re suggesting the fate of the Israeli state as being equivalent to the Israeli people, which is a false equivalency.
以色列是人类在20世纪犯下的最大的错误，但是我们已经失去了妥善解决这个问题的机会 Israel is the biggest mistake made by mankind in the 20th century, but we have lost the opportunity to properly solve this mistake.
"يتنوع الخطاب عن ومع فلسطين في “الشمال العالمي”؛ بين المؤسسات الأكاديمية والإعلامية والحركات الاجتماعية والسياسية التي ترى في فلسطين إمّا سؤالاً أخلاقياً أساسياً، أو روابط وثيمات مشتركة، أو انتهزت فرصةً تاريخية لتحاول نزع صفة “الاستعمار” عن عملها – بمعنى آخر، تقول هذه الكيانات وبشكل غير مباشر: “قد نعمل مستفيدين من ثروات استُحصلت من عمليات استعمارية مختلفة، ولكننا نحاول، وجزء من محاولتنا هذه، أن نكون مع فلسطين”. يتحوّل فعل التضامن بدوره إلى محاكاة – أو محاكاة للمحاكاة، لا تمت إلى الواقع بصلة، وتنفصل عنه، لا بنيّة تحريفه بالضرورة، ولكن بهدف التهرّب من مواجهته أصلًا. يتماشى هذا الفعل جنبًا إلى جنب مع الفرضية التي مفادها أن الفلسطيني بالأصل ضحية، وأحيانًا يتحوّل إلى مقاوم.
وهذا الواقع، ليس بالضروري ناتجٌ عن أي مخطط مسبق، أو نية أذيّة، بقدر ما هي خلاصة انفجار تناقضات مختلفة لم يُتعامل معها. والواقع أن هذه الأسئلة حول ماهية التضامن “الغربي” مع فلسطين لم تتجاوز في السابق حدود الاستفسار عن النوايا. وبعكس المتوقّع، أُسست ديناميكية التضامن على أساس تلقّي المتضامن معه وقبوله كل أشكال المحبّة هذه، حتى ولو كانت مؤذية له في الأساس."
-إسلام الخطيب
English:
"The discourse about and with Palestine in the 'global North' varies; between academic institutions, media outlets, social movements, to political entities that view Palestine either as a fundamental moral question, through shared common realities and themes, or in seizing a historical opportunity to attempt to remove the label of 'colonization' from their actions and work. In other words, these entities indirectly state: 'We may benefit from the wealth acquired through various colonial operations, but as part of our attempt, we stand with Palestine.' Solidarity, consequently, becomes a simulacrum -- or a simulation of simulation, detached from reality -- not necessarily with the intention of distorting it but to avoid confronting its essence. This action goes hand in hand with the assumption that Palestinians are inherently (primarily) victims and only sometimes transform into resistors.
This reality is not necessarily the result of any preconceived plan or ill intent, but rather the culmination of various unaddressed contradictions. The fact is that these questions about the nature of 'Western' solidarity with Palestine have never gone beyond the boundaries of inquiring about intentions. Contrary to intentions, the dynamics of solidarity are built on the basis of the recipient embracing all forms of this love, even if it is actually harmful to (them) in the first place."
-Islam Al-Khatib
The point is... It doesn't matter now..most of the islamic world except Iran has forgotten their brethren and most of big powers are doing lip service for palestine sympathy. I mean we can bark how much we can.. It doesn't matter to Israel itself. Israel has absorbed most of palestine state and in few years they will absorb more and will erase the historical memory of any Palestinian state. Most Palestinians will flee to Jordon or Lebanon or will become a 2nd class citizen. The hard truth is how much we say occasionally that we are fighting for Palestine the state got finished when Egypt did it's accords with US and most of Islamic world along with USSR failed to intervene when Israel broke the UN partition plan. The one thing we can try is to change the internal politics of Israel to become a secular country instead of being this apartheid entity but that too requires many adjustments in the world political movement. Right wing jewish lobby is strong in the US and in Europe and they tow the genocidal apartheid line of Israel. It's sad to see a state sponsored genocide and silence of the world media but sadly it was all over when USSR collapsed. It will take hundreds of years to undo the harm done.
Arguing that there's not much to be done is not that useful. There's always something to be done. The South African apartheid lasted for decades, but it was eventually over too.
Bro, you are forgetting something in the equation. USSR was there and they intervened in every part of the globe with good faith. China's policy is non interventionist and Russia doesn't care truth to be told. South Africa didn't have nukes... Israel has it.
Russia doesn't have to care, neither does China, what is changing is that the west is becoming weaker, due to the actions of Russia and the growth of Chinese economic power and diplomacy, the Saudi-Iran deal being a great example of this. Western support is the primary root of Israel's power, and in a multipolar world that support will wane. This doomerism that nothing can be done is only under the assumption that Israel will remain backed by superpowers forever.
Also just as a side note, South Africa did actually have nukes, up until the 90s. They collaborated with none other than Israel to develop them too, as it happens.
West is not weak , its actually a false belief started by westoid right wingers and Russia's Lavrov. The multipolar world consist of fascist to non interventionist countries , I mean I don't expect Lula and India's Modi to speak about Palestinian cause or do anything about it . US has 800 bases and immense military prowess , it will take decades for west to plunge into recession and never recover. 2ndly , I request foreign comrades to walk to the talk , what so called western left have achieved for Palestine ? Absolutely nothing. only Jeremy Corbyn spoke about it and he was ejected from mainstream labour party . That's all you folks can do. I am not a doomer , I am a practical man , practically you comrades can cry a lot here or sing about Palestine but that won't change the reality which Palestine state is finished and its people in Gaza strip are living in an immense blockade for decades. And don't trust Saudi Arabia for Palestine , one day they went for BRICS and the next day they went for India , middle east corridor to appease US.
When did I bring up the "Western Left"? You assume that I'm some sort of champagne socialist that parrots what I hear on the internet? I have been to the region and spoken to Palestinians myself, don't delude yourself into thinking its anywhere near "finished" for them. I don't care what the west says, nor what Lavrov says, I simply stand with the Palestinians, and if they say that its not over, then it isn't fucking over. You can say something is "practical" or not based on whatever your own concept of the word is. Is it practical to allow the genocidal regime in occupied Palestine to keep doing what they're doing? Maybe you say yes, maybe most non Palestinians will say yes, but I don't care what most people say, because it sure a hell is not practical for Palestine, thats where I take my cue.
"Is it practical to allow the genocidal regime in occupied Palestine to keep doing what they’re doing? Maybe you say yes,"- haha , I didn't say i don't stand with them , It is just you accused me of Doomerism , I said I am not a doomer but I specifically don't believe in Idealism. Palestinains are still there but the matter of the fact with your support too , Israel will evict them , its going to happen and its not that I don't support them , its the fact that westerners are mainly silent on this issue , global south is weak and careless including China, Islamic countries don't care except Iran . Without external help Israel can't be defeated that's an absolute fact. few commies in Lemmy won't change the reality on ground , same goes with BDS movement .
Then what exactly do you mean by calling yourself a "practical man"? If all you're really doing is saying "something bad is likely to happen", thats one thing, but resigning yourself to that and saying "It does not matter now" is absolutely doomerism, try telling this to a Palestinian and see what happens. No Palestinian benefits from random commies on lemmy saying shit online, but they certainly don't benefit any more from people claiming they're a lost cause because their oppressor has nukes.
Man , I am all ears of your heroism if you can relocate those people from Gaza to a suitable place in any Arab country , otherwise I don't think anyone of you can stop the genocide. " it doesn't matter" how much right it has morally but it "exists" and its an absolute fact and its also a fact that you , I and commies from lemmy alone can't change the facts on ground . " try telling this to a Palestinian and see what happens." - Are you giving me a death threat here ? There are Rohingya people who fled from Myanmar after facing decades of genocide and persecution in large numbers and now are settled in Bangladesh's slum . Where are the commie organizations ? Why can't China and Russia ask Myanmar to retake their own people ? Where is the Islamic organization ? They won't do any shit for these people just like western commies solidarity to Rohingya and Palestiniains . Westerners talk a lot and do a little in grand scheme of things , Palestinian solidarity from the western world is just a facade on the corpses of humanity.
try telling this to a Palestinian and see what happens." - Are you giving me a death threat here ?
Interesting that you seem to assume that Palestinians will try to kill you for just talking to them.
You keep talking about Westerners, I have no idea why, maybe you think I am one? And the Rohingya issue has been discussed by communist parties where I am, I don't know about what is being said in the west, but I don't care, it doesn't matter if they address it or not, its a problem for Myanmar and those in the region that are actually able to affect it.
I get the feeling you're just debatebro-ing me at this point, but I'd prefer if you didn't lump me in with the average cracker who has never stepped outside of Wisconsin, thats all.
I don’t know if it would take 100s of years like that. If socialist countries took the region and held power then, without a doubt, we would need to deport settler colonialists back to their home counties immediately of course and begin working on giving the land back
