I live in the UK and nearly every older Communist you meet is a Trot and all the protests that I've been to that have had communists at them were mostly Trot orgs but online everyone just seems to shit on them for no clear reason. Am I missing something? Or is it just regular leftist infighting

  • PhaseFour [he/him]
    arrow-down
    10
    ·
    edit-2
    4 years ago

    Almost all of the M-L’s you see on the internet are radicalized online and not part of any sort of IRL group or politics

    The long storied history of Trotskyists making shit up is alive and well.

    We would raise the point that like Cuba as it exists now is in a transitional state, which means the possibility of sliding back into capitalism, especially without a large workers’ state like the USSR to fill in the gaps of its economy. The other way forward, under this analysis, is to spread and deepen the revolution, reinvolving the working masses in an active role, deepening workers control of the economy and democratic planning, etc.

    No ML opposes this statement. The type of shit MLs oppose is:

    From a general historical point of view, developing nuclear weapons is an absolute waste of human and material resources. But as long as society is dominated by privileged national ruling classes - in the case of North Korea, a privileged Stalinist bureaucracy - these will arm to the teeth to defend their privileges[1]

    Also, I don't love Trotskyists taking US-aligned intelligence reports as fact:

    Despite the indoctrination, it still remains to be seen how the North Korean masses will respond to Kim Jong-il’s death, and above all to the transition. Reports have emerged that indicate that their instinct to struggle has not been completely snuffed out. Here is what AsiaNews reported in February of this year:

    “The wave of protests that began in the Mideast appears to have reached even North Korea. For the first time in the history of the Stalinist regime, groups of ordinary citizens have protested in three cities demanding food and electricity, sources say. The event is exceptional and confirms the economic difficulties, especially concerning food supplies, people have to face under the Communist government.

    “According to South Korea’s Chosun-Ilbo newspaper, citing a North Korean source, demonstrations broke out on 14 February, two days before Kim Jong-il’s birthday, in the cities of Jongju, Yongchon and Sonchon, not far from the border of China.

    “The State Security Department (the all-powerful agency under Kim Jong-il’s direct control) investigated the incident but failed to identify the people who started the commotion when they met with a wall of silence.

    “‘When such an incident took place in the past, people used to report their neighbours to the security forces, but now they're covering for each other,’ the source said.

    “Korean sources told AsiaNews that this represents a crack in the prevailing mindset. ‘Different factors are at play. On the one hand, the country’s worsening economic situation is certainly one reason. The regime is in fact unable to feed most of its people. On the other, changes at the top are another as Kim Jong-un gets ready to succeed his father on the throne in Pyongyang.’

    “The younger Kim is ‘feared by the population,’ the source said. ‘He is viewed as bloodthirsty and mad. Almost everyone thinks he was behind the military attacks against ROKS Cheonan and an island under South Korean control, which led to restrictions on humanitarian aid from the South. This has further worsened standards of living in the North. North Koreans are ready to do just about anything to stop the succession.’” [2]

    • Bedandsofa [he/him]
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      4 years ago

      I think that the working class of Korea should have full control of their economy and society and I do think the leadership in the DPRK as it stands has an interest in repressing this process. You can “defend” the state against imperialism by signaling your support online or whatever, but the health of the workers’ state, the involvement of the masses in the revolutionary tasks, is going to be the outcome determinative factor whether or not you want to acknowledge it.

      • PhaseFour [he/him]
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        4 years ago

        I said nothing about "defending" the DPRK lol

        Trotskyists routinely and uncritically push far-right and imperialist lines on US-enemy states because they are desperate for their own political line to be validated.

        In the case of IMT's articles on the DPRK, they quote at-length unnamed sources from a far-right news publication with known connections to the US. The same news publication which has published hits such as "Kim Jong-Un Executes Wife for Doing Porn" and "North Korean Diplomat Executed on a Whim by Kim Jong-Un", both obviously false.

        The history of Trotskyism is a history of taking L's because they refuse to study and learn from revolutionary struggle. They just want to rehash 1924 until we all burn to death.

        Edit: Also, claiming the DPRK developed nukes to protect itself from their workers is deranged. The US military is stationed on their southern border. There is a better explanation lmao

        • Bedandsofa [he/him]
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          4 years ago

          And the DPRK is such a transparent, shining beacon of light for the workers of the world that there is no shortage of reliable information on the conditions and consciousness of the working class there.

          • PhaseFour [he/him]
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            edit-2
            4 years ago

            You distilled Trotskyism perfectly right here: "we only trust the far-right and imperialists when it comes to the DPRK."

            • Bedandsofa [he/him]
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              4 years ago

              I actually said that “ the DPRK is such a transparent, shining beacon of light for the workers of the world that there is no shortage of reliable information on the conditions and consciousness of the working class there.”

              By that I meant, sarcastically, that the DPRK has conditions for its workers that are less-than-exemplary and therefore it can’t hold itself out as an alternative to the status quo for the workers of the region. Same reason why China can’t hold itself out as an alternative to the workers of Hong Kong.

              It doesn’t mean I support US imperialism in Hong Kong, or in Korea, but it’s not me who is failing the working class there, and the quality of that working class leadership, whose deficiencies you defend, will be what makes or breaks the struggle against capitalism and imperialism.

              • PhaseFour [he/him]
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                4 years ago

                You are talking around the fact that every single Trotskyist publication relies heavily on myth-making from the far-right and imperialists. There are definitely valid criticisms of the DPRK. They are just never provided by Trotskyists because their understanding of the country comes from South Korean tabloids.

                And I have not said one word defending the DPRK thus far. What would I be defending them from?

                If you want to claim that Kim Jong-Un sent secret service members to crush a popular uprising in 2017, and use that Chosun Ilbo article as proof (as IMT did), I would defend the DPRK from that obvious imperialist lie.

                Since you really want to see a defense of the DPRK, here's one: the Workers Party of Korea and the Chinese Communist Party have done more for their working people than any Trotskyist party in history. No Trotskyist is interested in learning from that history.

                • Bedandsofa [he/him]
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  4 years ago

                  Post your group’s publication and we can all compare.

                  • PhaseFour [he/him]
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    4 years ago

                    Here's a good sample of the content PSL puts out [1] [2] which is the American political party my politics best align with.

                    The first is an analysis covering the context for the Trump-DPRK negotiations.

                    The second is a member's first-hand accounts from their visit to the DPRK.

                    The concern about DPRK state media is valid. If we are skeptical of all the coverage surrounding the DPRK, we should not be speculating on their day-to-day internal politics. I haven't listened to the first-hand account yet, but the analysis only references the indisputable facts - the state of negotiations and major historical events. So, I don't think it will be particularly controversial.


                    I would much rather take this approach to relationships with decolonized nations. There is no clear opposition in the DPRK that better represents the Korean people, so I should not impose my will on them. Western chauvinism needs to die.

                    There is this myth that socialist countries are extraordinarily repressive & no opposition exists. That is simply not true. In the 1980's, when there was mass discontent with the Soviet government, the existence of an opposition was incredibly obvious and well known to the USA. We heard about it all the time. If there was a mass popular movement against the DPRK, we would likely see more indisputable proof of it.

          • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            4 years ago

            So maybe Trots and other left anticommunists should shut the fuck up when they dont have reliable information instead of following the imperialist line and therefore earning the title of left anticommunist?

            • Bedandsofa [he/him]
              arrow-down
              2
              ·
              4 years ago

              So maybe M-L’s and other vulgar Marxists should shut the fuck up when they dont have reliable information instead of constantly staking out positions on the right of the working class movement and abandoning proletarian internationalism in favor of one-dimensional “anti-imperialist” positions.

              • Huldra [they/them, it/its]
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                4 years ago

                love to be internationalist and fighting for the proletariat by not taking anti-imperialist positions.

                • Bedandsofa [he/him]
                  ·
                  4 years ago

                  Proletarian internationalism is when you conceive of yourself as a member of an international working class (“the workingmen have no nation”), and “in the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries” “point[ing] out and bring[ing] to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality.” Internationalism on a proletarian basis is how imperialism is actually opposed in substance and not just aesthetic.