With the membership approaching 100k, and with the structure of the organization being democratic and up for revision given a strong enough push from the internal caucuses, why are there still unaffiliated american socialists?
I think the predominate view on this website is that DSA is a monolithic organization that is simply full of radlibs and social democrats or democratic socialists, however the richness of the caucuses and the amount of local marxist caucuses which are attempting to reform the DSA is in my opinion largely ignored here.
The Democratic Socialists of America is *our* organization as socialists of america and if you critique it without affiliating yourself and without acting to change it, than what are you truly doing? It is definitely one of the twelve types of liberalism for you criticize in private but not to the collective itself. Problems you have with the DSA from your critical perspective should be brought up every month at your local general meeting. Critique from outside the organization, as if you were not a socialist, is not going to affect change.
tl;dr: as a chapo who didn’t join DSA for years bc of the stigma here calling them radlibs, i ask of you, why are you seriously not in the DSA. for if you don’t like it, then join and act in the oppositional caucuses; and if you do like it but just haven’t joined, then come on comrade follow suit.
edit: This struggle session has been quite bountiful I will say. We have learned that there are three instances in the DSA's constitution that allow for (1) the expulsion of members that are under the discipline of democratic-centralist organizations (2) local charters will be revoked if the majority of members become under the discipline of democratic-centralism and that (3) local youth charters will be revoked if majority of members become. dem-cent.
If you can't get white liberals to abandon the Democratic Party, good luck accomplishing anything with any sort of leftist strategy. They're not going to sit idly by while they lose political power, so it's either get them on board or fight against them. And if you're fighting against them, you're taking on the two major political parties in the most powerful country on the planet, right at home.
they aren't getting on board
we are fighting against them
Well, then good luck. I personally don't see how any leftist movement is going anywhere if it can't even siphon off significant support from the leftmost major party in the country.
And a bunch are getting on board. Most people here used to be libs.
without significant issues to rally around, whether they're strictly economic or strictly social or some combination, we're just preparing ourselves to be melted back down into the Democratic Party... pretty simple
Issues like universal healthcare? The cost of a college education? A job guarantee? Ending police violence?
There are plenty of issues that can (and already have, to a limited extent) split off white liberals from the Democratic Party.
oh right, those things that the Democratic Party leadership have repeatedly & unabashedly insisted will not be taken up in Congress, whether controlled by Dems or not?
Uh, yes. Those are exactly the type of issues that people will rally around, that won't simply get melted back into the Democratic Party. Mainstream Democrats' refusal to move on them is exactly why so many people are looking at least as far as the left wing of the party.
but again, we're talking about electoralism and "voting" these "reforms" into place... which will require Democratic Party politicking, not just attracting a critical mass of White liberal base (something that through experience does not happen)
Again, if you believe this, good luck. If you're planning on fighting both major parties in the most powerful country on the planet, you're veering into "I'll start a protracted people's war with my five True Leftist friends" territory. The numbers just ain't there.
The viability of this changes as the size of the left grows. If the DSA -- not a marxist group, but a group that pushes policies significantly to the left of Democrats, that Democrats have no current interest in adopting -- starts winning more local seats and builds more of a congressional caucus, mainstream Democrats might balk at rigging a presidential primary against them, or might not be able to do so.
The numbers just ain't there
kind of sums it up, doesn't it?
The numbers aren't there if we write off white liberals without even trying. If we can turn some libs into leftists, there's a shot.
okay, keep lionizing and steel-manning the "potential" for White liberals to embrace even the slightest left reform
we'll be old & grey by the time you realize they aren't budging
OK, then what's your plan? Honestly, how do you expect to beat both the Democrats and Republicans without siphoning off any significant support from either party? I'm not fucking with you -- I'm all ears if you have a workable idea. I just don't see it, and defeatism isn't acceptable.
And if your answer is "activate the people who don't regularly vote," Bernie just tried that, and it wasn't enough. And if your answer is "get them involved in direct action instead of voting," I have a hard time believing that people who aren't politically active at all, who didn't even go out and vote, are going to show up in the numbers and the regularity it would take to sustain any sort of non-electoral campaign.
Nothing is happening within electoral politics in America... and if you can't see that over the course of 2020, then I am not sure what you're holding out hope for
Everything and I mean EVERYTHING that progressives & radlibs and all of their disparate factions attempted to throw against the wall has been roundly rejected. That means M4A & "Defund the Police" and "tax the rich" and just about every slogan or "movement" you could think of will be co-opted/watered down/ and rejected all the same
The Dems exist to lock out the left, not to fairly & justly allow the left to outmaneuver their legitimacy
There is no "workable idea" if your plan is to "vote" in anti-capitalism & universal single-payer. The corporate lobbies own both parties, there is no entryism... to hold out hope that they (meaning liberal voters & DNC apparatchiks) will one day see clearly the moral high-ground is delusional. And I do mean that
So your answer is: nothing. You have no alternate plan.
If the Bernie/DSA strategy has only a 1% chance of success, it's still better than your plan, which is nothing and has no chance of success. If the Bernie/DSA strategy is completely hopeless, it's still better than your plan -- which is nothing -- because it will at least get people together who might think of a better answer. Forgive me for thinking this conversation has been useless if the best you can come up with is complaints.
no, it's literally organizing at work and among your friends and family... that's really it
no one has a "plan", isn't that obvious? The DSA ESPECIALLY doesn't have a plan because all they need you to do is VOOT... which in and of itself accomplishes 0
Organize who?
You've written off all Democratic voters, and I'm assuming you're not planning on chuds leading you to the promised land either. So we're back to asking people who don't vote -- and who didn't come out to vote in big numbers even when Bernie offered them material improvements -- to do something far more politically involved than voting.
Good luck.
Your co-workers... not voters as some necessary unquestionably coherent bloc. Why are you ignoring dual power? Why are you ignoring the real effect that workers can have to influence & change their own economic situations? Real organizing starts on the community & workplace level as far from the ballot box as you can think.
Poor people don't vote because they don't see it working, and can you really blame them? We don't have to convince poor people to vote for our personal faves, we can just organize among our fellow workers & poor and see what they want. Mao knew this perfectly well
"organizing" voters is like herding cats, they're motivated by selfish & performative cable news talking points... not needed revolutionary change.
No, we're asking for basic economic rights & workplace democracy... that's literally what leftism is
imagining you can vote away the rich's wealth was eschewed longer than 120 years ago. It's not happening
Note also that "organize!" is no more of a plan than "vote!" is. Vague directives are useless. You have no plan, you're just taking pot shots at people who are actually trying something with a chance at working.
You have no plan lol... so keep paying your DSA dues and hoping & voting
Hoping and voting all your life
:pigpoop:
and voting & hoping
:PIGPOOPBALLS:
vootin' & hopin' & copin'
deleted by creator